Proposal: Paid Advertising on Steem (with a Twist)

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The Steem community is growing, and with it - so is the value of our attention. Already, many are paying hundreds (sometimes thousands) of dollars to bid-bots in order to be featured as one of the top trending articles.

Advertising = More Money into the Steem Economy

Online advertising is a billion dollar industry. Bringing that industry to Steem has the potential to dramatically increase the amount of capital flowing into our ecosystem. More money in the Steem ecosystem translates into more money for users, more money for investors, and higher STEEM prices.

Users: The Life-Blood of the Steem Economy

Many content creators on Steem struggle to earn sufficient income due to the lack of attention from large stakeholders, as well as the inability to monetize content after the seven day payout period.

What if content creators were able to further monetize their content through the use of ads? This is nothing new. Platforms like YouTube already offer this. Typically though, these platforms take a majority cut of the money. The content producer only earns a small percentage of the overall revenue taken in from the advertisements.

I am a firm believer in the mission statement that was written in the Steem whitepaper: Rewarding the users for the contributions they make to the platform.

If a user is generating content that is worth thousands of dollars to advertisers, why shouldn't they keep 100% of the ad revenue?

100% of the Ad Revenue - How is that Possible?

There are two parts to this:

  1. A standardized protocol for the advertising system to run on the Steem blockchain.
  2. UI changes to websites (like steemit.com, SteemPeak, Busy.org, etc.) to display the ads.

Part 1: Standardized Protocol

In order for the advertising system to work across multiple UIs, the data stored in the blockchain would need to follow a consistent format, so that all UIs would know how to render the data.

This is something that will need to be discussed with the various developers in the community (especially the ones running their own UIs), so this proposal is by no means 'final', but let me offer a simple prototype to illustrate how the system would work:

Prototype Protocol:

  1. Advertisements will be based on a time-based, payment weighted bidding system.
  2. Time increments can be purchased in one hour increments, up to a maximum of 7 days.
  3. To purchase ad space, the advertiser sends STEEM to the user whose content they want to advertise on, using a specially formatted memo.
  4. Advertisers can purchase space on a user's entire blog (i.e. all of their posts) or on a specific post. To advertise on an entire blog, the memo should contain a * in place of a specific link to advertise on, and the payment will be divided equally among all of the posts that are active during the purchased time period.
  5. Advertisers will only be able to advertise links to other Steem blockchain posts.

Here is an example of how the memo could be formatted:

ADVERTISEMENT:<num_hours>|<link_of_post_to_advertise_on>|<link_of_advertisement>

Some additional variations that could be integrated into the protocol include:

  1. Allow users to refuse advertisements via their settings.
  2. Allow users to specify a minimum payment amount via their settings (i.e. ads will only be displayed if they are at least 0.1 STEEM/hour).
  3. Allow users to specify whether they will allow NSFW advertisements on their posts. A global black-list would be needed for advertisers not complying with the rule.
  4. Allow users to set a threshold to only allow ads from advertisers who have a history of completed ads above a certain STEEM amount (i.e. only allow ads from advertisers that have already purchased over 300 STEEM in previous ads).

Part 2: UI Advertisement Rendering

Each individual UI will choose whether or not to display the advertisements, and how to render them if they do. UIs that decide to display the advertisements will be giving the content creators on their platform additional incentive to produce high quality content.

To determine which advertisement gets displayed at a particular point in time:

  1. Collect a list of all advertisements that are active for the current time, and enforce all of the soft-consensus rules for the protocol.
  2. Sum up the total amount of payments that are active for the current point in time.
  3. Take the percentage of total payment for each advertisement to determine it's chance of being displayed.
  4. Randomly pick one of the ads to display based on the weighted percentage.

To illustrate, let's say that a particular article has three advertisement bids:

  • Advertiser A has bid 5 STEEM for their ad.
  • Advertiser B has bid 3 STEEM for their ad.
  • Advertiser C has bid 2 STEEM for their ad.

For simplicity sake, all three adds were placed at the exact same time, and are each for 24 hours worth of time.

Each time that a post is rendered on the UI, the UI picks one of the ads to display. Ad A has a 50% chance of being chosen; ad B has a 30% chance, and ad C has a 20% chance.

Discussion Encouraged

This would obviously be a major change for the platform, and would require significant effort across the developer community to get off the ground. At the same time, it has potential to dramatically increase the utility/value of the platform. I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks.

Please share your thoughts in the comments below.

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@timcliff,

I have run an advertising agency for a decade. I think your idea has great potential. I do see, however, a problem.

Experienced advertisers long ago stopped believing in artificially inflated "views" and "follower counts," which is endemic on other major social media platforms. They want "real viewers who are honestly engaged."

  1. The existence of bidbots, multile-account-self-upvoting and voting rings make any "post-payout metrics" on Steemit useless.

  2. Large Follower counts are all but meaningless in today's Follow-for-Follow environment and, on Steemit, people follow fat wallets ... simply because they're fat.

  3. And, Whales producing "sub-standard" content, but nevertheless attracting hundreds of fawning commenters, is unlikely to convince advertisers that "legitimate engagement" has been achieved.

The theoretical curation process of Steemit (Hot, Trending) would have solved the metrics problem beautifully, but 15 minutes of due diligence uncovers the fact that such rankings are bought, and almost never earned.

My views on potential advertiser reactions is not speculation. If you look on my blog, you'll see a two month absence. During that two months, I approached a very well known Fortune 1,000 company with the idea of sponsoring an almost two-month-long Contest on my Steemit Blog (my company creates poetic advertisements).

The Contest would have paid out USD $100,000 in SBD prizes.

I presented them with 3 poetic ads to choose from. They LOVED all three, and so, my proposal soon tripled in size. Three Contests at USD $100,000 apiece in prizes. The Contest would also have had them open an account and deposit six figures. This account was to afford them additional "prize-giving capabilities" during a Contest and, between them, was to have been delegated to me.

Of course, large advertisers don't do anything without doing due diligence and creating a set of metrics to gauge success. The company's enthusiasm soon cooled. To quote one of the senior marketing execs, "Steemit is a Den of Thieves ... everyone's cheating." I corrected him saying that most people didn't cheat. He replied, "And those are the ones who leave."

And so, I set about the Herculean task of attempting to clean up Steemit. I did a ton of research and a ton of thinking. I decided to publish a Series of Articles to gauge the reaction of the community and attempt to stimulate a conversation.

Here's an article that was posted 3 days ago. By Day 2, it was ranked 7th on the blockchain for "Most Comments." Take a look to see how it achieved such august rankings. Your fellow Witnesses figure prominently.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@quillfire/central-premise-and-proposals-a-series-about-fixing-steemit-part-4

At present, no major advertiser would touch Steemit with a ten-foot pole. Any advertising Steemit could attract, without major reforms, would be so low-paying that it wouldn't be worth the effort.

Steemit has to make a decision: Either act like a legitimate blockchain with a commitment to curating quality content, or, remain a cheater's paradise where the name-of-the-game is gaming the Reward Pool.

Quill

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Hey Quill,

no major advertiser would touch Steemit with a ten-foot pole

Maybe we can provide them a 20 foot pole ?

On a serious note , great points that needs introspection from community , BTW ,have you looked at @steem-ua project by the way ?

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As soon as someone makes an arbitrary "All knowing" statement such as that one they lose all credibility.

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@itstime,

Actually, I did a bit a research last night. It seems like an interesting development although the "mass of the idea" is sufficiently large that it requires a bit of thinking before weighing in. As usual, the most difficult part of "governance issues" is the Law of Unintended Consequences.

At first blush, it strikes me as being a thoughtful "work-around" of a serious problem (I mean that as a compliment). I just wonder if it's enough. The systemic damage caused by vote-gaming (bidbots, multiple-account-self-upvoting, etc.) is so substantial that I believe serious recourse is required.

BTW, prior to getting into advertising, I spent 20 years in high-finance, a substantial portion of which was running two hedge funds, one of which was a currency trading fund. A good portion of my views about Steemit, its problems and their resolutions, is colored by that experience. Cryptocurrencies are growing up and they're going to have to start playing by the rules. Steemit's tolerance of institutionalized cheating WILL NOT be tolerated by institutional investors.

To me, the ultimate determiner of success will be which crypto-currency-backed social media platform gets derivatives (especially Options) first. Whichever does, will become almost unassailable. I wrote an article about it (make sure to check out the comment/reply thread to @cryptogee): https://steemit.com/steemit/@quillfire/derivatives-a-series-about-fixing-steemit-part-3

Quill

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Cryptocurrencies are growing up and they're going to have to start playing by the rules. Steemit's tolerance of institutionalized cheating WILL NOT be tolerated by institutional investors.

It's quite understandable institutions would want to invest in mature products/ecosystems but look at the 800 pound gorilla of crypto ( BTC) even that has not made the cut yet to be considered mature enough to get pass through for ETF.

I think STEEM will need to run on retail/whales for a while until institutions meet crypto world half way where it isn't quite the polished product but not the fresh green amateur it is today.

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@itstime,

Hey mate. Of course, your comments are correct. Adolescence is a process of growing up and even Bitcoin is barely a teenager. A long way to go.

Unfortunately, like a teenager, cryptos, and Steemit in particular, engage in a lot of self-destructive behavior. As I've written before, in the next couple of months, Steemit is finally going to have competition and will start having to compete for users.

Despite this self-evident reality, it is engaged in activities guaranteed to drive new and existing users away. The proof is in the retention rate, or lack thereof. The blockchain doesn't have time to let the ideologues be "rebels without a cause."

until institutions meet crypto world half way

I spent 20 years in high-finance, a substnatial part of that running a couple of hedge funds. I promise you ... institutions are not going to meet cryptos half way. Crypto managers are going to cut off their ponytails, put on a suit and start acting like the Wall Street SOB's they so widely deride ... or they'll be bankrupt in short order.

The level of delusion in the world of cryptocurrencies is mind-boggling. Any number of Fortune 500 companies could buy controlling interests in Steemit with their corporate credit cards. They won't, because it would be a lot cheaper to simply replicate the blockchain minus the obvious flaws. And yet, Steemit Whales and Witnesses strut around as if they're going to dictate terms.

To anyone outside of the Steemit bubble, bidbots are self-evidently upvote-gaming devices that in any corporate setting would be straight-forward fraud.

Bidbots are NOT normal advertising or promotional devices. In a normal advertising or promotional device, the advertiser pays 100% of the cost of promotion in exchange for 100% of the potential gains resulting from such promotions.

With bidbots, the cost of promotion is paid, in part, by all Steemians as bidbots materially diminish the Reward Pool. And yet, the gains of said promotions accrue solely to the bidbot user. Socialized risk, privatized gains.

In any other context, this is called cheating.

A gnarly legal question arises respecting the Witnesses. Do they have a "fiduciary responsibility" to protect the best interests of all Steemians? Steemit is not a corporation ... but neither is a Trust. *(A Trust is not a "thing," but rather a "relationship.") Courts the world over have found repeatedly that Trustees do have a fiduciary responsibility to the Trust's beneficiaries.

If a similar line of thinking were to be applied to Steemit, the Witnesses might very well have substantial legal liability for allowing mechanisms, such as bidbots, that self-evidently violate the financial interests of non-bidbot using Steemians. Given that numerous Witnesses are actually bidbot owner/operators ...

No institutional lawyer in the world is going to miss something so obvious and not a one would involve their institutions in such a potential mess.

Steemit is a brilliant idea. Play the game STRAIGHT and everyone will prosper.

Quill

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Most of your comments make sense in context of the current situation. I am however quite certain that when there is profit to be made people/institutions find a way to make it all work.
Yes, ponytails will be cut but I also think that the other "high risk high yield" instruments will be created by finance world.

Any number of Fortune 500 companies could buy controlling interests in Steemit with their corporate credit cards

Agreed , I have also written about this :
https://steemit.com/teamaustralia/@itstime/question-how-would-you-kill-steem

At the same time it is also true that incumbent leaders are inevitably too slow to adapt , with few notable exceptions .

I do concede that since you have worked in the field for many years , your lived experience has more weight than my speculation/desire.

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Well, thank you. Can we put this into intro page of condenser.

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@Quillfire

Bid-bot is an unfortunate name choice , it is basically a promotion service no different than (atleast in concept) promotion services on other social media channel. What it needs is more sophisticated quality controls ( UA should help) and blacklists.

itstime

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It's all really good feedback. I agree 100% that inflated metrics such as follower counts, payouts, and views (which can't even really be measured on Steem) are all not going to cut it.

The platform does need quite a bit of cleanup. Communities and SMTs are two things in the pipeline that have potential to dramatically change how we discover and reward content. To some extent, we are going to need to wait for those to be rolled out before we will be able to make any measurable progress.

Bid-bots in my opinion are a phase. They may last for a long time, but I believe one of the main problems is that stakeholders don't really have better ways to earn ROI (yet).

Also, I would not expect any major advertisers to jump in right away. The first step is to get a system in place that is integrated across the blockchain, and then start to build on it. Initially it will probably be used mostly by Steemians trying to get more attention for their blog posts.

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@timcliff,

Tim, I just replied to a comment on one of my posts that I thought would be germane to this conversation: https://steemit.com/steemit/@quillfire/follow-up-central-premise-and-proposals-a-series-about-fixing-steemit-part-4

@lanniebrockstein

Lannie Quoting My Article

In my original article, I mentioned that bidbots alone deplete the Reward Pool by 25-30% of its payouts. This is a huge amount of upvoting capital that is being channeled away from legitimate curation, a process which is every bit as vital to the blockchain as is quality content creation, and which makes a joke of Steemit's Central Premise, that: Content Shall Be Compensated Commensurate With Its Quality.

Lannie's Comment

Are there statistics which show how much Steem it is that bid-bots earn? If that 25% to 30% of Steemit's daily reward pool was not going to bid-bots, and if the revenue that bid-bots earned to promote posts was instead burned by @null, then the price of Steem would greatly increase, would it not? If so, then that is what the price of Steem actually is when not being artificially decreased by bid-bots.

My Response

It's variable. Firstly, it depends upon the bidbot and the other bids it receives. Secondly, it depends upon the price of STEEM at the time of the post. The 25-30% number I quoted was the average of a typical week's worth of bidbot usage.

My belief is that if you banned bidbots, their users WOULD NOT alternatively use the existing "Promote" feature (I think that's what you're suggesting). From everything I ever read, no one looks at the Promote channel ... and why would they? It simply tells you that somebody is advertising their post. Is that interesting or relevant to anyone?

However, this is where @timcliff's proposal could be interesting. https://steemit.com/advertising/@timcliff/proposal-paid-advertising-on-steem-with-a-twist

If a Steemit author wants to pay for legitimate, and potentially effective advertising, let him/her.

Let's say I agree to allow advertising on my blog page. You want to advertise your post on my blog because you believe my readers might also be interested in your post. My readers have the option to click on your advertised post, or not, and then decide to upvote you, or not.

Is this not another form of legitimate curation?

All parties consented and it doesn't unjustly diminish the Reward Pool ... their upvote, or its withholding, would be based upon their positive/negative opinion of it.

Of course, I don't want "crappy posts/ads" promoted on my blog (for God's sake, I'm a poet ... I'm picky) so if I could "opt in" or "opt out" of the specific post/ads that would appear on my blog, before they appeared ... well now I'm VERY interested.

And isn't that yet again, another level of curation?

"If Quillfire agreed to let that post/ad run on his blog ... it MUST be worth seeing. He's picky."

EDIT: I just reread your question about how much the bidbots themselves earn. I'm not sure, although, I suspect you could get a rough idea by "grossing up" the value of the 25-30% bidbot usage.

Quill

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Lol. Exactly. I left for months due to absolute craptastistic level of bottom dwelling quality and come back to a trending page full of bid bot garbage. An entire rewrite and redesign from a system-wide perspective is needed. The other option is not pretty. Myopia is a massive problem here, always has been. Look into the UA team and Partiko team as they have the right roadmap and commitment to excellence and I think these two initiatives are the last viable hope here. Lots of band aid projects help a few people but what we need is a massive culture and code shift.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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@stellabelle,

Are you married? If not, you have a suitor. :-)

I would love to hear your opinions on my proposed reforms. I'm in the middle of a follow-up post as the comments section for the original, as you'll see, have been overrun.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@quillfire/central-premise-and-proposals-a-series-about-fixing-steemit-part-4

Quill

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Lol this cracked me up. I’m in talks with the Partiko founder and some solutions are in the works. Friends first always Q. I’ll read your stuff now! Thanks to @timcliff for bringing all us critics together! I’m bullish people who care enough to point out flaws, most critics have left. Giving out criticism is actually a very passionate form of caring. The fact remains that I’ve simply put in too much time and energy here....

Posted using Partiko iOS

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@stellabelle,

Friends first always Q.

Playing hard to get, huh? :-)

I'll have to look into Partiko. I have, of course, seen the name tagged at the end of innumerable comments but I don't the particulars.

BTW ... if bidbots can't be banned (my preference), your suggestion of moving them to "Promoted" is an EXCELLENT Option 2.

https://steemit.com/bidbot/@stellabelle/steem-survey-should-the-posts-that-have-used-bidbots-be-moved-to-the-promoted-tab-nffcg9xh

Quill

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Watch my videos of the founder...

Posted using Partiko iOS

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@stellabelle,

I saw those and have been meaning to go take a look. I will.

Quill

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If I was running a company, I would take interest in you immediately. You should write proposal and submit it to the company. Maybe you can work for them, or be a consultant. We need talented people to redesign the platform.

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@remotediscovery,

Thanks for the ego boost! :-)

I'd love to help out in any way I could, although, I can't help wonder if the "company" (I presume you mean Steemit Inc.) wouldn't rather hang me from a yardarm. My ideas have generated controversy in some quarters.

Quill

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I just though of this yesturday. They seem to be afraid of programming, and getting all the UI's to agree. What if we had an advertising model that ran like focus groups?

What if we convinced small businesses and companies, to purchase temporary Steempower, and used their upvotes to get the community to engage with their upcoming product development?

Say if a fashion company, wants some ideas about their brand. They could spend $300 an hour on consultants, or drop $300 on 1 weeks delegation, and provide high powered upvotes, for those who give them the best feed back.

Use the corporate advertising model, to fund paid reviews through high-powered upvotes. They would do what there are doing, but have an official Steem account.

Say if their upvotes are worth $1 each. If someone gives them a good idea, they could provide them with a full upvote. If someone just participates, they could be generous enough to give them a 10% upvote.

I'm a firm believer that the future of advertising can incorporate self-feedback loops to mutual benefit. We no longer need Static advertising. Our experience could be interactive and community driven.

Steem could be a platform, where advertising runs like interactive focus groups. There post get trending, but many people are paid along the way for helping them out.

They could also have a Steem market to sell some of their products, and offer discounts to everyone who participated, and resteemed their post. This could go a great ways to divert our dependency on investors, and boost the Steem price.

It gives the community opportunities to earn high powered upvotes, by helping companies make some decisions. It could be an interesting experience for all sides. I would love to hear your ideas on this. What would you include in this model?

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@remotediscovery,

DELETE this comment immediately!!! Those are ALL my ideas! :-)

My initial comments still stand, however. Steemit would only be valuable to companies if it operated as it was designed to operate. All the "cheating mechanisms," would skew results making them worse than worthless ... false intelligence is worse than no intelligence. Companies need ACCURATE feedback.

There's a LOT of ways Steemit could generate TREMENDOUS WEALTH for its users ... but it has to run a clean game ... or all that potential becomes meaningless.

The cheating is TOXIC to institutions. They will not sully themselves with our disrepute (they create enough problems for themselves without dealing with ours as well).

You are a smart fellow. Perhaps we both ought to be consultants for the company! Nice to make your acquaintance. I've followed.

BTW ... the next time you have a brainstorm ... don't put it in the comments section ... DM me! :-)

@timcliff ... HERE, is a guy who's thinking.

Perhaps what the blockchain needs is to assemble a braintrust of people ... who can't code to offer up some non-coding solutions. To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. There's no "diversity of thought" ... it's all tech-heads. Not every problem has a solution that can be reduced to an algorithm.

Quill

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When brainstorming, they need a new way of looking at things, everything in nature can be broken down into classifications. Everything has its own frequency. You observe the dynamics, and mix things up. You got to start with the abstract first, before you say it's not possible. How do you direct message people on here?

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@remotediscovery,

You have to join a Discord Channel.

Quill

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  ·  작년

$300 = 420 Steem
420 Steem = 0.02 STU upvote for 100% (0.01 after 90% :))
meaning, daily 0.2 STU, weekly 1.4 STU of upvotes without 25% curation and 50% of SP -.-
if my math is not failing me. I hope it does but..

for 1 STU upvote you need 28.000,00 SP

these could be usable on specific dapps but not in the main sites.
Say steemhunt (clone of producthunt) could benefit from this approach, has a targeted audience, has a front-page so why not.

where will that fashion ad will be displayed? near my logo design post? :(

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I'm talking about spending $300 on 1 weeks Steempower delegation. If they go to minnowbooster.net, and they spend $300 at the standard 15.6 Apr, they will get 50000 Steempower for one week.

If they prepare a well designed focus group, they can reward the community with a $2.29 Steem Upvote at full power, or $0.29 at 10%. This will incentive's a ton of minnows, to join their debates and help them make important product decisions.

One consultant at $300 an hour, vs getting a great debate going with hundreds of comments.

For corporations, a dirt cheap focus group would cost them $1500, so if they spent $1500 on Steempower, they could get 250000 Steem for a week, and reward $11.42 full upvotes.

The whales might not bother, but the minnows would flock to their online focus groups!

Just look at Tim's example. Tim's been rewarding 0.08 and 0.15 Steem upvotes for members of this debate. Look at the feedback in these comments. If Tim got one hour from a consultant, do you think he would get pages and pages of useful ideas, for improving advertising on the Steem platform?

We got like 30 or 50 people bouncing ideas off each other. This could work on a massive scale, and they could use a professional moderator to Steer the debate. This is Steem's hidden potential. No other platform, that I know off, could implement this on a wide scale. They NEED to look into this! This idea wouldn't require a hardfork or any programming changes. Maybe just create a new tag, so people know where to find the corporate focus groups.

I'm just using https://steemnow.com/upvotecalc.html

Steem has significant edge. Hardly anyone is trolling these debates. Advertisers don't want to waste time on amateur forums, with a bunch of losers who post PEPE the frog memes all day. They would love the maturity of the Steem community. Thanks to downvotes punishments, there is actually civil debates here.

I think Steem has one of the most mature online communities on the planet. Yes maybe their a few idiots, but the majority of us, aren't here to Troll one another, we see this as an investment. It's hard to find the same high-quality feedback anywhere else.

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This is not the hidden potential, this is the wasted potential.
I missed my 0.08 even tho I wasn't here for that, I can see stellabelle name right under this box, whose reputation is 76 and has already a $1.66 vote value, I don't think she's here for that 0.08 either :|
I'm just here because 2nd top witness proposing something which I don't agree so I'm sharing my opinions.
Sorry for my miscalculation, and misunderstanding. I didn't think it was just for one week.
As you said it's not hard to achieve but we are busy with circle-jerking, self-voting. debating about how should we call promotional coughbidbot services.

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I get that, but if it's all we talk about, will turn new users off. There is always going to be insiders on any platform. If we get the corporations in here first, then we will begin to raise some of our standards. Will have something positive to focus on. And they will be less circle jerking in the focus groups.

I'm not so worried about changing the Steem system, I just want to make it bigger, and boost the value of Steem. I think focus group advertising, would give people something interesting to do, and many minnows would find a new revenue source.

We got to stop infighting, because it spreads FUD and looks bad to investors. I want to boost the positive opportunities first, and worry less about some of the crap, that is always going to exist. They can catch more flies with honey, than vinegar.

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This is a great idea and I will work on it. My community @rutablockchain has everything necessary to develop it locally in Venezuela and we could expand it. I'll get intense with this: D thank you

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Alot of people are knocking Steem. The metrics might be messed up, but we got some of the best users on the planet. Even if the rewards aren't fair, the Steem users make this an amazing platform. We need to stop always complaining about Bots, and "Cheaters Paradise", and focus on bringing new money into the system. Some bad things won't change, so instead of giving up, we can boost the positive opportunities.

What I love about corperate focus groups. They money would go to the grassroots. The minnows would be chasing the $2 or $10 upvotes, and the whales would focus on their own posts.

Corperatate focus groups, would support the minnows first, and the grassroots. It would reduce the income inequality, and boost the price of Steem. Steem would shift towards an economy based upon disposable income.

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Lol the only advertisers that would touch it would be Haejin or dporn both of which are already here.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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@stellabelle,

We have porn!?!

No one tells me anything.

Quill

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There’s something for everyone. Btw, I disagree with your insistence on enforcement of rules. New incentives have to be created that change existing behaviors..

Posted using Partiko iOS

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@stellabelle,

Countless sociological studies have been done on the issue of "positive and negative reinforcements." The conclusion: Sometimes one works best, others times, the other works better.

"The carrot or the stick" is an expression for a reason.

Imagine if we used only "positive incentives" in the real world.

"We'll pay all men $100/year not to rape women."

What about murder?

"We'll pay everyone $1,000 per year not to murder anyone."

You get the idea. Besides bankrupting the country in 24 hours, would it even be effective? Do rapists and murderers respond to positive incentives?

"I was going to rape that women, but, since I agreed "not to" when I accepted that $100, I'd guess I'd better honor the deal."

Every social organization in history, from companies to countries, have had to use "negative incentives" to control certain negative behaviors.

"If you rape that woman ... we'll throw your ass into jail for 10 years."

Perhaps, not surprisingly, "positive incentives" work best in encouraging people to do "what they're supposed to do:"

"Get straight A's and we'll go out to a restaurant of your choice."

"Negative incentives" work best in discouraging people from doing "what they're not supposed to do:"

"Cheat ... and you'll be expelled."

Steemit literally "creates money." Wherever you have a concentration of capital, you'll have a concentration of crooks. When I managed hedge funds, I was dumb-founded by the degree of dishonesty I witnessed.

Money ... makes some people EVIL.

You WILL NOT stop such people by offering them carrots.

Quill

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There is another option: disrupt it from within. Force new culture and change incentives. Cheaters will always remain but the widespread bidbot usage can be wiped out in several ways. Stay tuned.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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@stellabelle,

I've followed you.

Quill

I feel like it is a good take on how ad revenue could be added. Internal promotion is one way but personally I feel like we need the ability for advertisers to utilize external fiat money to advertise as well. It is simply too complicated right now for large companies to try to set up Crypto exchange accounts at Coinbase, Kraken....etc and then buy BTC, or ETH and then send that to Bittrex or Binance and then send it to a STEEM account and go through the steps to advertise. It is just too complicated and for them to get the OK to do it is unlikely. I feel like there needs to be the ability to pay with credit cards through a custom ad engine for banner ads on pages like Trending....etc as well.

I like your concept and think that could work as well but I feel like most of the promotion that way would all be internal promotion of projects and other's blogs who are trying to get viability which is cool too.

In all I think it is a good concept but I don't think we will see it on Steemit. I could see one of the 3rd party sites doing a concept like this if they felt they had enough of the traffic.

Ultimately I think we will see this type of concept implemented on a future platform on a different chain. ;-)

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The fiat -> STEEM problem is definitely something that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately the regulations in the US are a nightmare. It would be interesting though if there were a front-end website that could charge for ads (under this new system) and handle the fiat->STEEM conversion in the background. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like it might not be regulated the same way since the person paying in fiat is not really buying cryptocurrency - they are just paying for ads.

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Yeah personally I think there are a couple different ways that portion of it could be handled. Let's pretend a company like Steemit INC utilized some system like that and did a 50/50 revenue split on those kinds of ads. They could take 50% of it and buy STEEM and do distributions in STEEM Power to accounts that qualify under certain criteria utilizing some sort of engagement metrics....etc. That way it would create buy support for STEEM. Or just not have to dump as much of it which would have the same effect on the market. Then if everyone is getting SP distributions the money would be vested to begin with.

Yeah I don't think there would be any issue with US regulations if part of the money was used to buy STEEM and then distributed to users but then again it also could get interpreted as paying users commissions....etc and then suddenly the same laws could apply where if the person goes over like $500 they would possibly have to issue 1099's like affiliate commission sites or adsense does. That is a headache for sure. It seems to make it a lot less of a headache if there is a way to distribute out of the reward pool or give people more of an influence over the reward pool with delegations.

That could be one way around it. Have the "Ad fund account" and when people meet certain criteria they could get delegations which will give them more power for a period of time. I don't like that idea as much but it could reduce a lot of headaches.

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Well one of the differences between the ideas you propose and mine is that mine is really 100% decentralized. Nothing would require a centralized party in order to use / make it work. Individual websites would offer front-end services on top of the protocol, but they would not be doing anything special that could not be replicated if they were to disappear.

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Yeah that is a cool feature for sure. With Advertising I'm not entirely sure that a totally decentralized mechanism for doing it wouldn't get out of control . You addressed the NSFW stuff but I fear that ICO scams and ponzi schemers could go out of control. Kind of like on CoinMarketCap there was Bitconnect and LaserOnline ads all over the place.

I don't know what the right answer is on that stuff because I'm sure a lot of people got sucked into that stuff through the ads but how much did it really hurt the reputation of CoinMarketCap by allowing those? Ultimately I still go to CoinMarketCap so I can't say it destroyed their rep and they made a lot of money as a byproduct of those systems

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i wonder if someone could work with coss- i think they plan on bringing fiat pairs to all crypto in the exchange

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I'll pass the info on to Steemit's exchange team.

I can't hand on heart say I'm against ads given that my ad revenue from WP.com helped me quit my job this year!

However I don't think ads would do anything for smaller users... ie 99% of steemians... their audience is so small there would be no demand for advertising on their blogs... ad revenue doesn't even kick in on WP.com until you get over 20K views a month.

Also, to create a viable market we'd need to switch the page views display back on or give potential ad space buyers some way of telling how many human views they are getting!

I have used FB ads to drive traffic to my WP blog.... on that basis I'd need to know exposure and click through rate to make a value for money assessment.

Ironically if we could get ads to work it might reduce the influence of bots - advertisers want actual human users not bot votes!

It would also probably need communities to be sorted so as to.allow for targetted ads.

Do 17 of the top 20 witnesses want ads...?

Posted using Partiko Android

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Do 17 of the top 20 witnesses want ads...?

This is not a hardfork proposal, and therefore would not be dependent on witness votes. It would really be up to individual website UIs to decide.

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Thanks for the clarification. It's getting hard to keep up with all devs on here, let alone the potential ones!

Posted using Partiko Android

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I am only a part supporter of this idea. I will get the negative out of the way first.

I hate ads and I love steem being ad free. I also think we would be monitizing in this way far to early in the life cycle of the steem ecosystem.

That being said, ads have the ability of generating substantial revenue for content creators. Top bloggers online could be more attracted to the platform if it offered the ability to generate revenue from ads.

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I agree that it would be premature at this stage

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@paulag,

Advertisements don't have to be odious (although most are). Could you live with this one being run on your blog?

https://steemit.com/poetry/@quillfire/would-this-make-a-good-nike-ad-the-power-of-poetic-advertising

A quick, dirty way to monetize Steemit is AdSense the whole of @Steemit.
Steemit’s Google Custom Search already renders Google ads on the SERP.

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I'm pretty sure this would be an issue with their policy about having NSFW content on the same domain.

I like this idea. Ad revenue and author sponsorship's should be facilitated by the platform. Some random thoughts/ideas:

  1. Need to return the #views to the page. We had it once, but it fell out of favor. It is a necessity for advertisers to understand the impact of their investment
  2. Should have some filter to stop the herd of bot accounts. Advertisers only want real eyeballs, not simply hordes of fake accounts. Perhaps tie it to the reputation? Need some ideas here.
  3. To be serious, a new UI is needed for authors to preview, vet, approve, adjust minimum prices, and white/black list ads.
  4. Ad-space should be standardized designed into the interface to be unobtrusive to the readers. Standardization helps advertisers place a single ad across multiple authors.
  5. For times when ads are being displayed, authors should be able to define a default image or proposition.
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Need to return the #views to the page. We had it once, but it fell out of favor. It is a necessity for advertisers to understand the impact of their investment

The big problem with this is that it is impossible to measure across all the different platforms. For example, what happens when a user posts an article via steemit.com, only gets 5 views from the users there, but they get 10,000 views from SteemPeak.com?

Should have some filter to stop the herd of bot accounts. Advertisers only want real eyeballs, not simply hordes of fake accounts. Perhaps tie it to the reputation? Need some ideas here.

Well, advertisers would really be choosing which users/articles they want to advertise on. There would likely be a large need for ways to collect and present data to potential advertisers so they could make good decisions.

For times when ads are being displayed, authors should be able to define a default image or proposition.

It would probably work similar to how thumbnail previews are done today.

Interesting idea. I remember when I had it over a year ago...

https://steemit.com/steemit/@ats-david/advertising-revenue-and-distributions-on-the-steem-blockchain

Problem is - Ned already shot that idea down, so don’t expect it to be supported by their dev team or added to their UI.

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Well, a lot has changed in two years. Maybe we'll have better luck. I doubt they would jump on board right away, but if we can get a standardized protocol agreed to by the developer community and a few sites (like maybe SteemPeak.com) to start the integration - they may be willing to accept and merge a pull request if a community dev does the work.

(It will be an up-hill battle, but there is a good chance we can make it work.)

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I think getting Steem Dapps to use it would be a better/easier idea. That way they get more funds to reward there users/take less money out of posts this letting users earn more.

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Ned has a bad track record. I wish he would step down, and let smarter people take over. We got to get people with a proven track record, to take over positions in the company. Investors should ask him to make room, or resign.

It's not hard to figure out when someones burnt out. The guy treats his account like his personal Instagram. There's very little content or insight coming from him lately.

The smartest thing for NED is to keep his Steempower, and find better executives and programmers to replace him, then sell his position, when Steem rises to an all time high.

I think bringing adverts to Steemit might help the steem economy but will destroy one of the best attractive things of steemit. No Ads! I love that about the blockchain and if possible I don't want that changed.

Many content creators on Steem struggle to earn sufficient income due to the lack of attention from large stakeholders, as well as the inability to monetize content after the seven day payout period.

I agree with this, I have (kind of) friends in our steemit #gaming communities but most of them have the same SP as me. Less than a minnow, more than a toddler. Thinking on it though I rather not having a whale attention that making Steemit contain ads.


I wanted to contact you at https://steemeconomy.com/contact/ but decided to read comment & upvote one of your posts instead. I have a weekly shop on steemit and I accept STEEM/SBD (here's the current week) and recently crypto and #steembasicincome shares too, of course with conditions. Are posts like these are accepted in steemeconomy gaming section?

By the way, I still think your proposal is interesting,
even though I'm not fully with you in it.
UpvotedByAhmadmangaSquaredBlue.png

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I think bringing adverts to Steemit might help the steem economy but will destroy one of the best attractive things of steemit. No Ads!

We are not taking about bringing ads to Steemit. We are taking about bringing ads to Steem. It will be up to individual UIs to decide whether to show ads. If you really don’t like ads, use a UI that doesn’t support them.

As far as SteemEconomy.com if you have a business that sells something (good, service, etc.) and there is a clear way to pay with STEEM/SBD then it should qualify. Just fill out the form with the necessary information.

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Oooh, sorry I skimmed through your post and didn't read that part:

bringing ads to Steem. It will be up to individual UIs to decide whether to show ads. If you really don’t like ads, use a UI that doesn’t support them.

My shop is in form of weekly posts should I make my page, as the store page @ahmadmanga?

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Hmm, there is a lot of non-store stuff there. Could you create a second account using SteemConnect for your shop and then resteem everything from there?

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I liked your idea and made this account: @ahmadgameslist

Anyway, can I send it to steemeconomy gaming section now? should I contact you from the site itself? https://steemeconomy.com/contact/

Still thinking if I should write original posts for it or change to it completely though. Or let it as it is now.... Resteemer account!

Really, thank you of your idea, I put you in my witness list

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Yes. :)

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Will do!!

By the way, this yes reminded me of this

source

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Wow, never thought of this, Thanks a lot for the idea... It's great enough to add you to the my contest!

AddedAsEntrant-VotedBlue.png

I agree with Paula that doing advertising at this very vulnerable stage where 90% of users quit would be a disaster. Long term after retention has been solved and we have an actual Organic Trending Page, and the Promoted Page features the paid bidbot posts, and we have retention rates around 50% then we would have a site with a healthy ecosystem that could support advertising. Doing this before those core issues are solved would be a mistake

Posted using Partiko iOS

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One of the core issues affecting retention is the lack of new users ability to earn rewards, even if they produce quality content. The system I am proposing is intended to help address that - which is really one of our key issues.

I went REALLY skeptical into reading this article, yet one line switched me almost 180º

Advertisers will only be able to advertise links to other Steem blockchain posts.

This would solve for the most part the issue of ads being just obnoxious for most users, and really irelevant, however much effort may be put into targeting and profiling efforts.

Yes, I can see a scenario where adverstising, rather than being the classical relationship of a company shoving bogus product into user's mouth, would instead be more of a cross-promotion between various steem users.

Yes, companies can and will create bland steemit posts to which they will redirect through ads, but those posts tend to die naturally on this platform from what I saw.

And as long as the platform is not in a conflict of interest (i.e. having to ensure neutrality, but relying on advertisers for income) it shouldn't be much of a problem, any imbalance would sort itself out. And since blockchain is not a company, I expect to have this risk minimized.

Yes, I would find it interesting to see an ad system implemented, but only in the way described above, as a cross-posts, cross-author promotion, thus making the life better also for the reader, as he may get links to other relevant posts.

I am mixed on this. While I like the idea of moving more revenue into the Steem ecosystem, I'm pretty sure that the majority of our users would not appreciate seeing ads. But like you mentioned in another comment, this could be up to the different UIs and the users (showing ads on their channels).

My question is, what metrics would an advertiser use to decide which channels to display ads on? I imagine you would need some serious viewership in order to get noticed by advertisers, and that's something most people don't have unless they're promoting their posts with bid bots.

Allow me to Play Devil's Advocate

So I feel that what would happen is, people would be try to hit trending (even more than they do now) just to get noticed by advertisers (improve their views/metrics). But they likely won't improve on their actual content, which means that their content is likely to get flagged down. Then what happens to the relationship between the content creator and advertiser?

I think this could be done, but with some careful considerations. You would have to ensure that there's a healthy relationship between the content creator and advertiser, allow some type of refund to the advertisers in situations like I mentioned (perhaps an intermediary escrow), and decide what metrics you would provide to advertisers (and how true they are).

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I agree with you on your concerns. I don't think we should let people keep ANY ad revenue. Instead, I would like to see all advertising money go towards boosting Steem, and increasing the rewards pool. Lets let the community decide who they want to support with their increased upvote power. This should be the only compensation.

Let the advertisers to pay directly into the rewards pool, so we can all have more powerful upvotes.

This way will get better content, because there will be more money coming into the system, but the only compensation writers should get, is from the increased upvote value. What do you think of my proposal?

Could you imagine a threefold increase in Steem, and a tenfold increase in upvote value? If first time users were getting a dollar per post, instead of 10 cents, it would make a huge difference. It would create a self-feedback loop, because many new users would want to join Steem.

We can also create some filters to turn ads off. Maybe by default, people get a flat rate of compensation, if they choose to view ads.

The main purpose of advertising, would be to get money into the system, without having to rely on exchange speculation. All ad revenue should go towards boosting Steem, increasing the rewards pool, and minnow support, so we can reduce the income inequality, and attract new users and investors.

Just don't make one mistake. Don't divert money from the rewards pool, but allowing elite users to keep ad revenue. That will do less to boost the price of Steem.

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@brandonfrye,

This is why you have to kill all vote-gaming mechanisms (bidbots, multiple-account-self-upvoting) and channel "upvoting capital" into manual curation. If Hot and Trending really were "the best quality content," (like they're supposed to be), advertisers wouldn't care about Follower counts. They want "quality content" and "honestly engaged audiences" and placement in Hot or Trending would be evidence enough and many would pay a premium for it.

Each author interested in attracting advertising would fill out a Certification Checklist prior to posting: Subject Matter; Profanity; Graphic Images; Political Controversy; etc. Advertisers could then tailor their desired audiences accordingly.

BTW: Some advertisers WANT profanity and/or political controversy: Nike and the "Colin Kaepernick Ad" ... that was a deliberate attempt by Nike to "create a controversy" (and thereby generate a ton of FREE advertising via news coverage and social media warfare).

Besides advertising on legit Hot/Trending posts, some advertisers may decide to regularly advertise on all of certain authors' posts, perhaps seeking a long-term advertising relationship with guaranteed placement and a fixed cost. Others may seek to advertise solely within certain categories (tags).

The controversy at YouTube respecting demonetization was about YouTube demonetizing certain videos for "ALL advertisers" (because of the sensibilities of a few of the largest ones). Why didn't YouTube just insist that each video be accurately tagged according to its content, and then let each individual advertiser apply their own criteria?

"Speech Suppression" now comes into play ... many (myself included) believe that YouTube (Google) is deliberately trying to silence certain kinds of speech, by bankrupting the speakers, and using "advertiser objection" as the excuse for yielding the cudgel.

Quill

31.jpg
Did this get your attention? Some ads are interesting, and entertaining. We could embrace user-friendly advertising.

@TimCliff. You have giving me a lot of hope! I'm 100% behind this. We can have a debate over the advertising structure, but deciding weather or not to go with advertising should be a no brainer.

Right now, the main thing backing Steem price, is speculative trading. Do we want to remain at the mercy of private investors, or shall we take control of our own destiny? Personally I don't find ads annoying, especially if they secure the platform. I rather "suffer" through ads than worry about the price declining.

Steem NEEDS to evolve and become less dependent on speculation. Once we get advertising set up, WE need to create a market to buy and sell goods to other users over STEEM.

We have Steempower right? What if we provided discounts to people who power up? What if we create a new way of locking STEEM, like a subscription service, so members can get constant discounts, when they prove they are committed to the platform?

I hope you will brainstorm ideas for a market. One person can't think of all the ideas, so it's better to put 1000 brains together, and ask for on great idea from everybody. As I said before, let's create a curation trail, for people who submit good proposals! Let's brainstorm the concept first, and then will worry about the programming later.

You won't be able to do everything Tim. Make sure to branch out and find great partners. If you try and do everything on your own, you will burn yourself out. Get dozens of people to collaborate with you.

By the way. You can purchase that 3D printer for $180, but I won't tell you where to get it. If it were a real ad, how tempted would you be to click, and find out more information? This could be the STEEM experience.

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First when I read the tittle, I was thinking, no way! No ads on Steemit.
Just yesterday I wrote couple of words about how Steemit changed my perception on ads, and that I'm finding them more irritating now on other sites.

But reading your proposition about the possibility of settings, and does the user want ads, and putting threshold limits, than maybe is OK.

Users can still chose do they want ads or not. If this option is available for FREE, than having the option is a plus and addition to the system.

Hey Tim,
Your post brought to mind a project called Image Protect. whitepaper link - they are actually working with photographers and stock photo agencies; taking millions of pictures and converting them.

The embed codes work much like YouTube in that you paste a code and the image appears (no need to use precious storage space). These links protect the images for proper attribution but also creates opportunities for monetization. The more the embedded images are shared the more it can potentially make.

I need to test on Steemit to see if the embed codes work on Steemit but I wonder, if these two platforms were partnered up somehow, the images could potentially have long term residual income for bloggers well beyond the 7 day limit.

Just a thought.

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Hey steemit might work with them if they were a SMT :P

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My only issue here is the 100%. Who is going be spending the time making sure within reason the ads being delivered will both be safe and legit. If they are filled with a bunch of scammers trying get peoples private keys, other information, or infected with malware does not sound like a cheap thing to deal with.

Otherwise while the big “mainstream” stuff turns it back on the cryptocurrency world and there advertisement funds I say why not embrace it.

With people having the option to turn off running ads on their own page. Not to mention all other stuff going on in this site might as well at this point have thing going as well.

It would be nice to one day have googles style metrics on our blogs. I think that is the big thing missing here in bringing in advertisement dollars.

I personally hope one day to get some review gaming codes for a community I’m very active by reaching out to companies and information them we have a large amount of game reviews who would be willing to review the game at the cost of only a free key and being able to say what they want about the game. Hard to do so one day when there are no numbers of influence or other metrics to give out.

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My only issue here is the 100%. Who is going be spending the time making sure within reason the ads being delivered will both be safe and legit. If they are filled with a bunch of scammers trying get peoples private keys, other information, or infected with malware does not sound like a cheap thing to deal with.

The short answer is the protocol itself would address it. There are a few ideas in the post (blacklists, and thresholds) that could be used. The time spent would primarily be everyone in the community agreeing on the protocol, and then the individual websites integrating it to show the ads if they decide to use it.

It would be nice to one day have googles style metrics on our blogs. I think that is the big thing missing here in bringing in advertisement dollars.

The real challenge is tracking the interaction across all the different Steem interfaces.

I wrote a post a while back with a similar spirit but different angle. It discusses partnering with an existing ad management network like Anonymous Ads.
It would take the ad system “off chain” but on the plus side it would allow access to a robust ad management system right out of the box. Simple lightweight embeddable ad code also solves the problem of tracking metrics across multiple front ends.
I feel like something like this could be accomplished possibly with a few keystrokes, by just “whitelisting” the A-Ads embed code on Steemit and any other front ends that agree implement it.

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It's worth looking into for sure

@timcliff,

  1. Are you indicating ads would make the system profitable because of major ad markets getting involved? I.e. industry standards like Nike and Ebay?
  2. What would the appearance be? Some ads are grossly invasive upon a user experienve. Or will it be like a banner at page top or boxes with gifs... ad potential is high, but hiw invasive it becomes will determine its value amomgst people generally avoidant of ads.
  3. I would certainly be interested in advertising my projects, but if i know people have the abiliyy to simply turn it off, how likely am i to spend money in it? If there is a monitering application/tool that allows me to see how my ad progresses... amnt. of people by percentage and in what categories have turned off my ad, or how many have followed a link in my ad. This would incentivise me more to paying for the service.
  4. As a user, i would like to have a tailored ad experience. Perhaps the abiltiy to indicate with key words, hashtags, or by specific attributes the type of ads I see.
  5. I want to be able to share ads as well, or promote them further if i feel they are worthwhile.

Infinite Blessings!

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Are you indicating ads would make the system profitable because of major ad markets getting involved? I.e. industry standards like Nike and Ebay?

It would probably not get there right away, but that is the general direction to be heading.

What would the appearance be? Some ads are grossly invasive upon a user experienve. Or will it be like a banner at page top or boxes with gifs... ad potential is high, but hiw invasive it becomes will determine its value amomgst people generally avoidant of ads.

It would be 100% up to each UI to decide how to integrate the ads into their platform.

I would certainly be interested in advertising my projects, but if i know people have the abiliyy to simply turn it off, how likely am i to spend money in it?

The ability to turn on/off adds is unlikely something users will be toggling on a regular basis. They will for the most part either be on or off. As an advertiser you would only want to purchase ads from users who have ads turned on.

If there is a monitering application/tool that allows me to see how my ad progresses... amnt. of people by percentage and in what categories have turned off my ad, or how many have followed a link in my ad. This would incentivise me more to paying for the service.

Services like this are things that would likely get built as the need for them arises (after the system for advertisements is actually implemented and in place).

As a user, i would like to have a tailored ad experience. Perhaps the abiltiy to indicate with key words, hashtags, or by specific attributes the type of ads I see.

This is pretty advanced, but it could be done. Probably not going to happen in 'version 1' :)

I want to be able to share ads as well, or promote them further if i feel they are worthwhile.

Under the current proposal, ads are also posts, so you can always resteem them.

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I feel that it would harm Steemit to allow major brands that ad power. They are not community focused and would serve only to attract harmful attention.
I would be adamantine in my opposition to that sort of influence. I would hope that the commjnity would support itself throuhh ads and not have to sell its integrity to nonsense.

Much appreciation for your responses. They were helpful.
Infinite Blessings!

I am definitely looking towards an influx of corporate attention and capital to the STEEM blockchain. I suppose it would be harder to get the early majority of businesses to decide that the STEEM audience is worth spending money upon attracting than it would be to code for it.

As it is right now, I can't see any but the innovators (in the adoption curve) in business to see the value. Once the early adopter flood comes in, it would have been nice to have the coding in place so that they could work on the exploits/difficulties/issues that come from increased transactions of that nature. Then 1.1 or 2.0 released and ready for early majority.

Neat thinking and I DO think that 100% payout is an intended function of STEEM though I think a percentage delegated back into the community (minnow projects? STEEMit developers?) would be good as well.

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It's actually pretty cheap for an advertiser to just buy some Steem and do a post here that they buy votes for. That would get it on trending and they would be pumping money into this platform. It's probably cheaper than a lot of other places and they may actually make something overall.

I won't be surprised if people are working on ways to get ads onto Steemit. If you have enough followers then you have an audience they want and it could be fairly targeted. I see Steemkr has ads, but I assume they use conventional means and pay for running the site.

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All of the revenue for that is going to the bid-bot owners though and the stakeholders who are funding the bots. Is this really incentivizing the type of activity we want people to be offering?

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I know and I am not a supporter of vote selling, but maybe ads are a better use of trending than the junk posts you tend to find there. I think we need more whales investing delegation and general voting in supporting good content makers even if they don't pay. That will make the platform more attractive. We need to build the userbase to millions and many will be put off if they just see low quality.

I'm investing my time and using my few dollars of votes each day to support people as well as helping deal with some of the abuse. I still have confidence that Steem can succeed.

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I've not seen much from them lately. I expect their service to be more popular.

Hmm very interesting. I personally think most people that have come to Steemit dislike advertising. I agree that it could be huge for steemit to include advertisement, but I think it could be done in a different way than this. The people looking at the blog will be forced to watch the ads, I don't like that idea.

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Being able to choose ads or no ads, and then focus type of ads tou see, and when you see them. It leaves it all in the users hands. Its a perfect model to invite investment and usership while avoiding imposition upon people.
I would allow ads that brought to my attention things i am interested in, and that i could disengage anytime.

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I just don't see people bothering to switch from advertisement UI and be bothered much about choosing their advert preferences.

Copied my reply to tim.

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It would be entirely up to the individual UIs to decide whether they wanted to display the ads. I’m sure there would be “ad free” UIs that would spring up.

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I just don't see people bothering to switch from advertisement UI and be bothered much about choosing their advert preferences. Is there any incentive for the viewers to turn them on or off?

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If users don't care much about ads, then they will continue on. If they care enough, they will migrate to where there are no ads. Basically if "disliking advertising" is a big enough thing for an end-user, they will find a solution.

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I think we should have professional ad approval. We can't support junk ads. If a company wants to sell motorcycle helmets, many people would find that cool. They shouldn't approve misleading ads like "Find out how this model became a millionaire".

We also can be very supportive. If a stay at home mom, want to sell homemade jewelry. We should not only run her ads on here. We can go one steep further, and create a market, so she can directly sell goods to other Steem users.

Maybe Steem can partner with another company to design an advanced marketplace. Steemit needs to run contests to recruit the best and the brightness talent on this platform.

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Who is going to do the approval? How will it be integrated across all the websites that use the Steem blockchain?

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As far as programming goes. I'm not an expert, but I think using memos to exchange ads is stupid.

Steemit doesn't have experience with ads, so they should partner with a large firm that knows what their are doing.

You will need trained staff, that can tell the difference between a McDonald's promotion, and some Ebook author running a scam.

The Steem community won't have the professional training to handle the approval of advertising, so we should outsource this responsibility to another company that has professionals.

I'm a stock photographer, so when I submit photos to istockphotos.com, one of their employees takes the time to look at it, to make sure they aren't blurry, overexposed, etc. Some of my photos only make a dollar, yet they have an efficient approval process, so they can still make a profit.

We need to rewrite Steem code, so we can embed ads into posts, and there can be a view counter, and statistics collected for advertisers. I guess you call it a hardfork.

We might need a separate blockchain to handle ads, and be embed in Steem posts, but I want that money going towards boosting the Steem price. The main thing i'm bullish on, is getting large corporations to run ads on here. If we have to partner with an ad company, and share profits, it's better than doing nothing, and seeing growth stall.

Do what you got to do, and try and bring proposals to Steem Inc. If we actually pull this off, and Steem goes to $10, you're going to be a millionaire.

Lets get the whales to fund an ad proposal contest, and create a buzz, so Steem Inc, knows the platform is ready for ads. Lets create an incentive so people write detailed proposals.

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We need to rewrite Steem code, so we can embed ads into posts, and there can be a view counter, and statistics collected for advertisers. I guess you call it a hardfork.

Even with a hardfork, counting views and tracking data across all UIs is not possible.

Some of the ideas you suggest are good, but they are very lofty goals. I don't have the resources to make them happen, and I don't know of anyone in the community who does either.

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I would ban videos, and only have banner ads. They only distract you for 3 seconds, and if you don't like the ad, you continue reading the content. If they ad looks interesting, you click on it, and see what the product is all about. We don't need popup ads or annoying videos, just small banner ads.

I appreciate the intent; to allow advertisers. That would be a way to get content creators to be rewarded a bit more...

1 - a big part of the appeal of the platform is the lack of advertisement (beyond self-promotion)
2 - People will abuse the advertising system to maximize their own potential
3 - would not mitigate some of the issues of influence and rewards

Anyway, point is; should think carefully before starting down this path, it might solve issues but has a solid potential to create new problems.

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I think it would be a huge mistake letting authors keep 100% of the ad money. I think at least 50% should go towards boosting the Steem price, and increasing upvote power and the rewards pool.
I like to see the community retain a lot of influence, and not give too much power to advertisers to buy out certain people.

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If there was movement towards an advertising model, definitely would be best to have a split between what goes to the author and what is retained for the platform.

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I don't trust the whales here. Who's going to design the system? I'm worried the elite will rig the advertising so their the only ones getting paid, while the minnows get compliantly ignored by advertisers.

The Steem platform needs less income inequality, and more disposable income at the grassroots. Minnows must be directly supported by advertising.

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I agree; now, I'm fine with a reward inequality. There are people that put money, time and energy to build what they have.

It does get disconcerting to realize that best case most people will have a vote that is worth 2cents or less, while others have a 20% vote worth 50cents. When you see that bots are the primary source of income...

That's also why I am hesitant about an advertising model, ads get paid typically on views and clicks, when my average post might get 5-10 readers, that's not going to add much, but someone who can pay a bot to make it appear as though there are thousands more views, they will get the benefit of a larger chunk of ad revenue... it won't help in the way that is stated as intent.

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Let's not kid ourselves. Steem is run like a Banana Republic. You got investors playing games with speculation. You have a trending page designed to make it appear like everyone is making $200 average per post. Let's look at a snipped of the created page after 30 minutes.

39.jpg

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Oh look, someone acquired 0.08 SBD.

You say you are fine with income inequality? Well guess what, the store greeters get paid like kings in comparison to the board members at Walmart. Their income inequality is much lower.

If the average person on the trending page is earning over $200 per post, while many people are earning 1 or 2 cents, we got a problem. We don't have enough money coming into the system, so they got to fool everybody, by a misleading trending page, in order to attract investors.

You divide $200 by 2 cents, and you get. 10000. Are you fine with a 10000 to 1 income inequality ratio? We got to even the playing field a little bit more.

These dumbass whales don't realize, that when the minnows are feed, their support will trickle up to make them even more money.

Steem needs to be run like an economy on disposable income and not a banana Republic. Once you get corporate adds in here, and a proper market place, we can have an economy based upon disposable income.

Maybe we can redesign the rewards pool, to incentive's those who spend time reading the minnows post.

I think the curation rewards should increase, for those who comment on posts with from members of a lower Steem power. Lets have a progressive curation system.

@TimCliff says the rewards pool is flawed. I agree with him. I say we redesign the rewards pool, and then increase the rewards pool through advertising. That will give Steem an economic model, based upon disposable income.

Pragmatic income inequality is good. It motivates members to compete and produce amazing content, but we have to reduce the extreme income inequality on here.

If we change our model, will get our membership up to 10 million, and will start getting large corporate sponsors running ads to funding the rewards pool, and perhaps funding premium members who produce great content. But we should have a consensus to approve premium members, so we don't have bot abuse to take money from advertisers.

Once we get the corporate sponsors, lets create a special marketplace so they can sell their products on here. Many companies would love to run focus groups on Social media. This could be their platform.

So we have great ideas, but whos going to do the work?
If the programming is too much of a headache for 99%, then lets pass the information on to the top 1% who are talented enough to pull if off. Lets get Steem Inc recruit the best and the brightness talent from the Steem community.

Let's start funding programming contest, to find the hidden talent on here. Give all these employees a shitload of Steem, and explain to them, that if they pull this off, they are going to become rich.

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Powerful. Understand, I'm still a relative noob, to me it has that appearance.

The thing is, a lot of the time people making 200$ had to put in 150-200$ even to get that... Under the speculation that they would gain a profit by the week. That doesn't work on a downward trend.

The biggest part of that inequality is how much weighting steem power creates.

The only purpose voting has at this stage is the gamble that you got something at the right time and was about to get 1000$ in votes 2 minutes later... They call it DUST. lmao...

Anyway, I agree in about every sense... What I intended was, I don't care if someone has 2000 people reading their content and overall get regular readers getting a larger slice than something I post that might get noticed by a small handful of people scrolling on the new posts page.

It is ridiculous that the main motivation is to get enough SP to where a vote counts for more than 0. Then to get enough steem to pay for bots to up vote stuff. People literally put money in JUST TO SELL VOTES.

The other problem is the weekly payout. That's kinda like telling authors that "your book gets its first payout and then it's our advertising to get more people writing books". At best it's designed to generate a flow of mediocre content like a tabloid magazine.

If the motivation is to produce good content, then the payouts should reflect the blogs / videos / articles that garner legitimate interest over time.

Ex: make an article, the first week 5 people see and comment... Then it turns out that it's useful, and 6 months later that article hits trending numbers naturally. You have to hope that everyone subscribe to your new stuff...

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You have some good ideas. Write up an ad proposal, and lets expand this debate, so other members can give their ideas.

Talk about the forms of advertising you would support, and talk about the potential abuse we got to stay clear from. Take some time, and write something formal.

Personally, I think the blogging economy has very little value, unless it's backed by advertising or an market.

Investors can only do so much. What other ways can we generate revenue, and how can we attract large corporate sponsors?

I also think Steem Inc, needs to get out of their bubble, and partner with, or take advice from other companies, especially large advertising firms.

If nobody is willing to spearhead progress, than they need to reach out to former google employees, or experts from top notch firms, and have them mentor them.

Maybe ask a collage professor to have his students do a focus study. It's free consulting. They wouldn't have to pay them.

Steemit has alot delegation power. Why aren't they hosting 1000, and 10000 SBD contest, to get the best and brightest business minds, and programmers on board?

Check out Alibaba. This is where social media can meet the marketplace. I have buttered up small factories in China, to get architectural LED lights. I would get stuff that would retail for $1000, and negotiate it down to $80.

Those Chinese love to Sell! and will keep a conversation going for an hour, just to explain how their factory works.

I would get them to do custom modifications for me. They will create custom molds for me. Whatever I want.

Imagine merging social media, with product development. I just thought of an idea right now. Companies could use Steem power delegation, to run focus groups.

Social media meets product development, and users get Steem rewards or high powered upvotes. No more paying $300 an hour consultants. Spend $300 on one weeks delegation, and get the Steem community to provide feedback on upcoming products.

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Powerful. Understand, I'm still a relative noob, to me it has that appearance.

The thing is, a lot of the time people making 200$ had to put in 150-200$ even to get that... Under the speculation that they would gain a profit by the week. That doesn't work on a downward trend.

The biggest part of that inequality is how much weighting steem power creates.

The only purpose voting has at this stage is the gamble that you got something at the right time and was about to get 1000$ in votes 2 minutes later... They call it DUST. lmao...

Anyway, I agree in about every sense... What I intended was, I don't care if someone has 2000 people reading their content and overall get regular readers getting a larger slice than something I post that might get noticed by a small handful of people scrolling on the new posts page.

It is ridiculous that the main motivation is to get enough SP to where a vote counts for more than 0. Then to get enough steem to pay for bots to up vote stuff. People literally put money in JUST TO SELL VOTES.

The other problem is the weekly payout. That's kinda like telling authors that "your book gets its first payout and then it's our advertising to get more people writing books". At best it's designed to generate a flow of mediocre content like a tabloid magazine.

If the motivation is to produce good content, then the payouts should reflect the blogs / videos / articles that garner legitimate interest over time.

Ex: make an article, the first week 5 people see and comment... Then it turns out that it's useful, and 6 months later that article hits trending numbers naturally. You have to hope that everyone subscribe to your new stuff...

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That's the key for a new movement i mean the advertising move a lot of money and if you combine blockchain and ads i think we will have the perfect cocktail. Regards

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I like this idea 😀
However who will get the money?

I think another alternative is that all ad money gets burnt thus lowering supply and making demand grow on a more limited supply.
so an ad based system burning sbd/steem like the promoted tab
just my thought could be a bad idea

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However who will get the money?

The content creators would get 100% of the money.

I think another alternative is that all ad money gets burnt thus lowering supply and making demand grow on a more limited supply.
so an ad based system burning sbd/steem like the promoted tab
just my thought could be a bad idea

Yes. As you pointed out, this system is already in place today.

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Coin burn would be unattractive because it's invisible. Fund the rewards pool, so investors don't have to take a loss, everytime someone upvotes. If ads pay to increase our upvote power, it takes the weight off investors.

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Funding the reward pool sounds cool but it would need massive consensus bc it need to be put in the blockchain. Burning is a way for a UI to add an ad network more fairly.

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We can't have a two tiered system that ignores minnows. Everyone, except spammers should get direct ad funding, or we should fund the rewards pool.

The only tweek for me to suggest would be to have the steem involved in ad purchases sent to NULL. This would keep pressure on the steem price which will be needed over time in my opinion. It does not address continuing rewards for the content creator yet we should be careful not to wring the cloth too dry. 😎

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That system is already in place with promoted posts, although it uses SBD instead of STEEM.

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Good point!

Great proposal. Advertising is exactly what we need. And opt in opt out system would mean people can have the choice whether to display ads on their posts or not. And also perhaps integrating the ad system with the trending page would give advertisers more incentive to pay higher advertising fees.

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I just want ad revenue funding the reward pool, instead of directly to the users. With the increase upvote power, users can have greater control over who they want to support.

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A large chunk of the rewards pool is going to people who are exploiting the system in various ways. If more of it was actually going to reward the people who were contributing the most, I'd agree with you.

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UPDATE. There is a major flaw in your memo proposal. Steemit only has 1 million users, and only a few hundred draw in the kind of views advertisers would be interested in.

I don't see large corporations, taking the time to send memo's to multiple users. Sending multiple memos would take too many man hours. They would have to pay their employees more to send memos, then they would get back from advertising.

This is why I say ONLY have widescale advertising across the entire platform. Advertiser don't have the time to Cherrypick certain users over another. We're not Facebook with over 2 billion users. Have the advertisers pay directly into the rewards pool. This way we can attract corporate investment, instead of a few niche advertisers, only interested in a few users.

The memo payment might be targeted, but it would significantly reduce the number of potential advertisers. I feel like what your suggesting would be very exclusive and very limiting. It wouldn't do much to boost the price of Steem.

Like it or not, the rewards pool, is the bedrock of the STEEM platform. I know it has abuse, but this is what we all signed up for, so lets increase the rewards, instead of getting caught up about who abuses it.

Maybe we can have separate debate on rewards abuse, but lets use advertising to boost the price of Steem, and increase the rewards pool.

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I don't see large corporations, taking the time to send memo's to multiple users.

It is not expected that large corporations will just flock in right away. Most of the ad revenue initially will be from people who are already members of the platform.

Sending multiple memos would take too many man hours. They would have to pay their employees more to send memos, then they would get back from advertising.

The expectation is that someone would build a website to make this easy, and then all they would have to do is sign the transaction using SteemConnect.

Maybe we can have separate debate on rewards abuse, but lets use advertising to boost the price of Steem, and increase the rewards pool.

I'm against this idea. I've already explained why multiple times. We will just keep going around in circles.

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I don't mean to give you a hard time. I respect what you're doing. Going around in circles is how complicated decision making happens.

I would support 100% going to the author, but I want new members to feel motivated at the beginning. I want new members to get a slice of the ad revenue. Even if it's just 0.001 Steem for their early posts.

Maybe we can install a view counter, that pay's people in proportion to their views.

Steemconnect might make it easier, but I don't want 90% of the playform ignored, because advertisers don't want to spend time on them.

I feel like what you're proposing, doesn't kickstart early content. I think it will create a two tiers system, where the elite get direct income off ads, and the only thing minnows have, are upvotes, which are barely going to them.

For bad content, maybe create a system where, minnows only get paid, if 10% of the viewers hit an approval button.

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I would support 100% going to the author, but I want new members to feel motivated at the beginning. I want new members to get a slice of the ad revenue. Even if it's just 0.001 Steem for their early posts.

This assumes that adding money back into the rewards pool will actually go to new authors.

Maybe we can install a view counter, that pay's people in proportion to their views.

This doesn't work, given that users are viewing content across a huge variety of platforms (SteemPeak.com, Busy.org, steemit.com, partiko, eSteem, etc.).

No matter what system is implemented, the reality is going to be that minnows have to work their way in. Nobody can come to the platform and expect to start earning a ton of money right off the bat. If users want to earn, they need to actually add value to the platform, which includes producing good content, and building a network of followers.

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I just want people to get a boost at the beginning. That way we will see a massive growth in membership.

Advertising will be great, but if we want massive amounts of money, we got to do something like Alibaba, and create a smart market, for people to buy and sell goods.

Businesses love Alibama, because they can negotiate custom orders from suppliers, where Amazon can't.

You merge social media with the market place, and watch Steem go to the Moon! Imagine being able to negotiate supply orders using Steem.

Imagine the Steem blockchain being used for business negotiations? Wouldn't that bring money into the system!

Someone needs to collect everyone's idea here, and use it to write one amazing proposal. Then send the proposal to the executives at Steem Inc.

I'm very optimistic. We should create a curation trail for people who submit 1 page proposals. Someones idea is going to be genius.

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There is no perfect solution. There will always be abuse. Perhaps 50% of the ad revenue goes towards authors and the other 50% goes towards supporting the Steem price, and increasing voting power as a whole.

The most important thing to me, is making sure Steem price stabilizes. If the price continues to fall, will all become bag holders.

I'm willing to tolerate some level of intrinsic ads, if I can sleep at night, know my investment in Steem, is secure. We have to become less defendant on exchanges. Everytime there is a pump and dump, Steem goes up slightly, but falls even more.

I hear alot of naysaying in the comments. Well I'm glad you're taking action.
Desperate times, come for desperate measure. If we become too idealistic, we might bankrupt ourselves. Lets try and figure out an ethical compromise, but at the end of the day, we need to save the Steem platform from collapse.

We got to stop procrastinating. Lets have a debate for a month, and then TAKE action on our best ideas. We can compromise with all sides, but pretty soon we need to take bold action.

Sponsored links its a start. Let's have small banner adds. 1 Banner ad per post, no popups, nothing irritating. Let people disable the type of ads they don't like, and flag any ad they find offensive. If an ad is flagged a certain number of times, it gets removed.

Pass all this information onto the Steem employees, because there will be some programming involved. We don't need some minimal cookie cutter tweek, such as memo exchanges for ads. We don't need to be cutting corners. We need to redesign some parts of the platform. They will have to roleup their sleeves and do some work.

Wow! This would be an amazing feature for the steemitians. Every producer can advertise their goods with a payment of steem. But, I did'nt understand how I get a commision by advertising their goods. If you don'nt mind plz clear it for me.

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As a content producer, anybody who wanted to place an advertisement on your post could send you STEEM. You would receive the funds that were sent to you. By producing good content and generating a large audience, your 'ad space' would become more valuable to advertisers.

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Hmmmmmm!
Its also depend on my creativity! because the important thing is, How I represent advertisement beautifully among the people. May be He will check my all blog before choosing me as an advertiser.

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Hi @timcliff,

Apologies for derailing this comment thread, but didn't know how else to get in touch. I was referred to you by Julián González who said you'd probably be the right person to talk to about this.

I'm José Macedo, senior analyst at AmaZix (https://www.amazix.com/ // https://www.linkedin.com/in/ze-macedo-15b1b175/). In case you haven't heard of us, we're one the largest community management, consulting and advisory companies in the crypto space, partnered with Bancor, HDAC, Bankex and many others. We've worked with over 100 projects and now have over 100 employees.

We're now working on a forum project with a token to incentivise quality content/curation. We really like the STEEM distribution algorithm for this and are very interested in building on top of STEEM. Our ideal scenario would be to use the SMT protocol, but we realise launch is scheduled for January and we simply cannot wait that long to launch.

We’re curious if we’d be able to chat to someone from the SMT team to discuss our options in the meanwhile. Currently, we’re leaning towards issuing an ERC-20 and then switching to SMT’s once they launch, but we’d love to find a way to build on STEEM from the get-go.

Let us know if you have some time to talk and discuss our use case. Thanks in advance for your time,

José

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The people to talk to are david@steemit.com and andrarchy@steemit.com :)

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Thanks very much for the quick response :) Will e-mail them now!

@timcliff. Were you able to read my reply to
@brandonfrye? What do you think about ad money going towards the rewards pool, instead of letting users keep their own ad revenue?

Personally, I would rather see stronger upvotes, than a few people get rich through ad connections. I think that would be a really good compromise, that would benefit the community as whole, instead of a few whales, who might abuse the platform.

When authors keep all the ad revenue, the commentators get turned off. The commentators help support the posts. If they see a bunch of ads, and only see the authors getting paid, they will resent the Steem platform.

I think all ad revenue should go towards supporting the Steem Price, and help increase upvotes and rewards, and nothing else.

For those who are against advertising, thanks to another bitcoin panic, Steem has dropped 20% over the last 24 hours. All the more reason to diversify, and find alternative ways to bring money into the system. We tried the investor only method, and look where it got us. It's time to innovate!

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Replied there.

When authors keep all the ad revenue, the commentators get turned off. The commentators help support the posts. If they see a bunch of ads, and only see the authors getting paid, they will resent the Steem platform.

There is nothing saying it needs to turn into a super intrusive ad system. Maybe just a "sponsored link" at the end of a post.

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I don't want to see authors keeping over 50%. Lots of people are against this, so we got to compromise with them.

I've purchased $300 in Steem power. As an investor, if I'm going to put up with ads, I want to make sure some of that money is supporting Steem tokens, and increasing voting power. I didn't invest, so the elite can throw ads at us, and take all the money.

If we hold Steempower, Than we're all investors, so where's our cut from that Ad revenue? If 50% doesn't go towards increasing voting power, how are we going to motivate minnows to produce good content? Our upvotes will remain low, and few people will want to join the platform.

Without a good food supply, the whole platform declines, as it has already. Go to the created page, and sell many authors are only getting 1 cent per post.

The only way the minnows will put up with the flaws of the Steem platform, is if they actually get paid something. That's why 50% of the ad money, should to go towards increasing voting power.

Think of it as economics, based upon disposable income. When they spend their upvoting power on us, we get paid more.

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If we hold Steempower, Than we're all investors, so where's our cut from that Ad revenue?

It is likely that many of the users earning STEEM via their ads will power up their STEEM to increase their stake.

The only way the minnows will put up with the flaws of the Steem platform, is if they actually get paid something. That's why 50% of the ad money, should to go towards increasing voting power.

Increasing voting power is more of a benefit to the larger stakeholders. Paying the content creators 100% is more of a benefit to the smaller users.

Think of it as economics, based upon disposable income. When they spend their upvoting power on us, we get paid more.

This assumes the larger stakeholders will actually upvote minnows. They are not really doing that today. do you think that will all of a sudden change?

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  1. I think Real Time Bidding (RTB) Wiki can also work on Steem Blockchain.
  2. and Steem Inc. can put some ads on steemit.com e.g. this post and use the income to buy more steems! ^_^
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  1. How can impressions be measured across platforms though?
  2. I think Steemit is going to stay away from taking in fiat and using it to purchase STEEM for regulatory reasons.
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maybe a CPC (Cost Per Click) model works better. e.g. A click can be broadcasted to the steem blockchain.

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That would cost someone bandwidth for each click. It is also something that can be easily gamed/abused.

I as actually talking about this on another post lately just from a more business perspective than a development one.

My question is how can we add external revenue to the steem blockchain?
I think that we have a great project here with a lot of developments coming down the line. However, the real value of any company is it's earning power. For me SP are each of our stakes in the company. We are all investors in what we have here but to see real value for our stakes I believe we need an external source of revenue. What I would love to see when SMT's go live is an some sort of ad token. A token linked directly to ad revenue earned and distributed on a regular basis depending on your SP.
Who wouldn't want to hold massive amounts of STEEM if you were getting payed regular dividends from revenue generated by all the different functions of the blockchain.

Part of that for me would be allowing an account to switch off advertisements like you said and then not to receive any add tokens or whatever system was put in place.

What if content creators were able to further monetize their content through the use of ads? This is nothing new. Platforms like YouTube already offer this. Typically though, these platforms take a majority cut of the money. The content producer only earns a small percentage of the overall revenue taken in from the advertisements.
I am a firm believer in the mission statement that was written in the Steem whitepaper: Rewarding the users for the contributions they make to the platform.
If a user is generating content that is worth thousands of dollars to advertisers, why shouldn't they keep 100% of the ad revenue?

I know that your idea was to allow posters to advertise on there own content which is a different path to what i was thinking. i was thinking more of having advertising across the whole blockchain with steem holders all receiving a share of the revenue. Now I haven't a clue about coding or development so i can answer on the logistics of doing any of this but I had been thinking along these lines myself.

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having advertising across the whole blockchain with steem holders all receiving a share of the revenue.

This is along the lines of what we have in place today with promoted posts. All of the revenue from those is burned, which is essentially a form of payment to stakeholders.

The main difference with mine is that the revenue would be going to the content creators themselves.

Interesting thoughts. I don't relish the idea f ads being shown on the platform as that's one of its draws, but if the revenue was going to the content creators, then it could compensate for the invasion of ads. It would be another way of monetizing the content.

I'm curious to see what any advertisers would say about buying placement on Steemit or Steem apps. Do you have any contacts that have been driving this?

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Nothing specific, but I know there is interest.

If bidbots are made irrelevant, and therefore if the hundreds and thousands of dollars that are currently being spent by users on bidbots were instead spent on @null (as is supposed to be the case as intended in Steemit’s whitepaper, but isn’t due to the selfishness of many witnesses and whales) then that would greatly bring “more money into the Steem economy” simply by means of that SBD being burned by @null, therefore increasing the price of Steem.

I joined Steemit because it hasn’t any advertising. I would be revolted to see advertisting on my older posts that did not have any advertising on them when I posted them.

You are all forgetting something very important. With advertising comes censorship.

Fuck, shit, cock, bitch. There, I just completely ruined this thread’s advertising earnings potential, because Nike, Coca-Cola, and other politically correctly brainwashing/advertising corporations do not like swear words to appear on their ads, or on pages where their ads appear. No corporation will dare advertise on this thread now.

How about making bidbots irrelevant, and therefore making Steemit's “Promoted”, "Hot" and "Trending" pages to function in the spirit that they are intended to function in Steemit's whitepaper? How about being true to Steemit’s whitepaper, the way that U.S. patriots are true to the U.S. constitution? How about being patriotic to the whitepaper of Steemit?

You’re all traitors, the lot of you!

Bidbots are against Steemit’s whitepaper, because bidbots have ruined Steemit’s “Promoted” page, its “Hot” page, and its “Trending” page, and as a result, instead of the hundreds and thousands of dollars that are currently being spent by users to promote posts, being burned by @null, we have the price of Steem very low, and the owners of bidbots very rich.

Everybody whom is against the spirit of Steemit’s whitepaper, which is against bidbots, is a traitor! Bidbot owners are anti-Steemites.

Why are people using bidbots to have their posts featured on Steemit’s “Trending” page, rather than using @null to have their posts featured on Steemit’s “Promoted” page? What makes the word “Trending” more desired than the word “Promoted”? The short answer is that's the way the market to artificially promote posts has developed. Therefore, simply implement a Fork that makes posts which are promoted by @null to now appear only on Steemit’s desired “Trending” page (even if they do not have many upvotes and comments), and instead make organic pages that have many user comments to appear on Steemit’s “Promoted” page.

Simply reverse the definitions of “Trending” and “Promoted”, and therefore reverse the trend of people paying hundreds or thousands of dollars to bidbots to have their posts appear on the “Trending” page, and instead have them spend those hundreds or thousands of dollars on @null to have their posts appear on the “Trending” page.

There is nothing unethical about Steemit's definition of “Promoted” being amended to mean “Posts that are organically promoted due to high number of user comments (and not upvotes).” There is nothing unethical about Steemit's definition of “Trending” being amended to mean “Posts that are artificially promoted due to SBD payments to @null" as that is a kind of trend.

As things stand, bidbots cannot get posts to appear on Steemit’s “Promoted” page. Therefore, by simply switching “Trending” with “Promoted” so that only @null boosted posts are posted at “Trending”, the same way that currently only @null boosted posts are posted at “Promoted”, bidbots become extinct, the price of Steem increases from the SBD that was being spent on bidbots to promote posts instead being redirected to @null, and therefore burned by @null as is intended in Steemit’s whitepaper.

And there we have it: the theory of Steemit’s whitepaper is actually put into practice, and there is no need for Steemit to feature any goddamn evil and stupid and ugly and invasive and brainwashing and censorship-causing advertisements by horrid corporations that manufacture their products in sweatshop factories that exploit second and third world countries.

Instead of using advertising revenue to compensate for the damage that is being caused by bidbots to the price of Steem by means of their receiving the Steem/SBD that, according to the spirit of Steemit's whitepaper, is supposed to be burned by @null, this idea increases the price of Steem by means of it making bidbots extinct. It stops bidbots from continuing to damage the price of Steem—therefore, this idea increases the price of Steem. It is not necessary to use advertising to increase the price of Steem when bidbots are made extinct. Everybody wins, except for the bidbot owners that are damaging the price of Steem, and the brainwashing/censorship-promoting corporations that are damaging second and third world countries.

Users at Steemit can still have their posts artificially placed in the “Trending” page, only by means of @null and not bidbots. Users at Steemit can have their organic posts placed in the “Promoted” page, only by means of many comments and not upvotes. How to prevent bidbots from ruining the “Promoted” page? By making it based on the number of comments, and not also the number of upvotes.

Bidbots cannot post comments that anybody will reply to, and reply to, and reply to, as @timcliff and others have done in this thread. Bidbots are not capable of real conversation, which can only happen organically. Take the number of upvotes completely out of the equation in regards to which posts appear on the “Promoted” page, and the “Promoted” page can be organic. Therefore, bidbots go bankrupt as they no longer can game the system, due to @null now doing what they used to do, via the "Trending" page instead of the "Promoted" page, and with all users of Steemit being the beneficiaries of this Fork.

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If bidbots are made irrelevant, and therefore if the hundreds and thousands of dollars that are currently being spent by users on bidbots were instead spent on @null (as is supposed to be the case as intended in Steemit’s whitepaper, but isn’t due to the selfishness of many witnesses and whales) then that would greatly bring “more money into the Steem economy” simply by means of that SBD being burned by @null, therefore increasing the price of Steem.

Stakeholders are going to do what they want with their stake. That is how the system is designed, and there isn't really a way to change that. You may want to check out @burnpost - it is along the lines of what you are suggesting.

I joined Steemit because it hasn’t any advertising. I would be revolted to see advertisting on my older posts that did not have any advertising on them when I posted them.

It will be up to each individual UI to decide whether to display ads. If you don't like them, there will be UIs that don't show them which you can use.

You are all forgetting something very important. With advertising comes censorship.

There will always be the rewards pool, so content creators don't have to use ads if they don't want. Also, if a content producer has nsfw content, maybe there will be some advertisers that still want to advertise there. The whole system is voluntary on both sides - everyone can choose if/how they participate.

How about making bidbots irrelevant, and therefore making Steemit's “Promoted”, "Hot" and "Trending" pages to function in the spirit that they are intended to function in Steemit's whitepaper? How about being true to Steemit’s whitepaper, the way that U.S. patriots are true to the U.S. constitution? How about being patriotic to the whitepaper of Steemit?

How do you propose we do that?

Therefore, simply implement a Fork that makes posts which are promoted by @null to now appear only on Steemit’s desired “Trending” page (even if they do not have many upvotes and comments), and instead make organic pages that have many user comments to appear on Steemit’s “Promoted” page.

This does not even require a fork. They are working on it here: https://github.com/steemit/condenser/pull/2908

it stops bidbots from continuing to damage the price of Steem—therefore, this idea increases the price of Steem.

I agree that integrating promoted into trending is a good idea, but I doubt it will stop bid-bots. Time will tell though.

Steemit’s whitepaper

As a side note, you are confusing "Steem" (the blockchain) with "Steemit" (the website). The whitepaper defines how the Steem blockchain will work (not the steemit.com website).

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What you're suggesting is a slippery slop. Would we say no to Best Buy, because they sell computers made in China? Steemit would seem like a politically correct madhouse, if that were the case. If we want to boost the Steem price, than we need to get the big corporations on bored.

We have to be realistic. I would rather see clickbait gone. I'm ok with Nike Shoes, but I don't want to see girls in bikinis telling me, I can become a millionaire, if I follow their secrete marketing strategy.

I want to see ads selling real products, and not ebook scams. If we want to see our investments 5 or 10x, we have to stop being stupid liberals, and go after the big money. If McDonalds want to promote their burgers, let them promote their burgers.

Do you want your investment on Steem to go up, or do you want it to crash? Go with the corporate advertising, and don't ban companies who use sweatshops.

Let me ask @TimCliff. Do you care if you see a few McDonald's ads. If you're account goes up to a Million dollars, because Steem goes above $10? Chase the big money, and don't look back. Don't give into the purest who want to stay poor.

Will do more to change the world by boosting the value of Steem, and promoting a great online community, than keeping ourselves isolated, because we're unwilling to branch out. Why ban Nike? Why not take their money, so we can fund bloggers who expose sweatshops? Who cares about corporate advertising? Boosting Steem, is the smartest thing we can do to support online debates that can change the world.

Will do more to change the world, by using corporate money, to fund our debates and ideas. If we go with advertising, we need to think big! We shouldn't stop at user ads. We need to create a good interface, and chase down large corporations.

Find the energetic business-minds on here and partner with them. Find people who have hunger in their eyes, and be a driving force to bring prosperity to the Steem platform.

If you added content-based advertising on the whole platform, regardless of any relationship between advertiser and user, the platform could then distribute the total advertising:

  • to all holders of steem, perhaps by using the income to just buy steem on the open market (which would increase the value for all holders)
  • to all content creators, weighted by votes, or page views
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That is along the lines of what we have today with the “promoted” posts.

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hehe, nice! :)

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Thank you! Yeah! :))

This could definitely Boost steem market cap if everything goes well perfect idea everyone has shared great thoughts :)

I don't know people already block normal ads, maybe if they are contextual and easy to buy could work

Is there no place that advertising will not foul?

I am very interested in what you propose, but nevertheless, always the small ones will have difficulty, against those who already have a good money supply and are very visited even though some of us have small and good content.

Friend only if you allow me I can make the translation of your publication, this information should reach more people who speak Spanish.

I hope you can afford that opportunity.

Greetings from Venezuela a people oppressed by their communist rulers ..

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Yes, go for it

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Ok, thank you very much, I will try to make that publication tonight. I hope the government does not cut me the electric power.

@timcliff This could potentially be huge!

I think Steemit was created especially to avoid sponsored and advertised content. My opinion we should not have ads on steemit!

Always watch your news timcliff .❤
truth and real streemit news! good news for steem😉 👏 Great post as always!

Great post, so much to learn. Keep writing...I'll keep reading, commenting and writing. thanks for what you do

Congratulations @timcliff!
Your post was mentioned in the Steemit Hit Parade in the following category:

  • Comments - Ranked 6 with 92 comments

Ads are the logical path forward, but I'd like to see revenues get funneled into a voting account that rewards new content creators on the site. (Perhaps we would tolerate the ads more this way if it was linked to some social impact or cause)

And I'm sure there will be plenty of upcoming ICO's, post-SMT's that'll need another advertising outlet other than just the trending page.

Thanks for opening up the discussion.

Excellent important information that everyone with Stimit was needed. . There are many things to learn from these post-teaching posts. And they can tell people who know and know from very deep. . You have a good experience on this which follows you who are good for them. I'll tell you this way. Our love is with you and will be there.

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"If a user is generating content that is worth thousands of dollars to advertisers, why shouldn't they keep 100% of the ad revenue?"

  • Because noone creates that content. We have a magnificiant front page, full of brainfreaking awesome content.

It's been already thought. First if you want to bring value into steem you have to provide this service with fiat not with steem. So we can actually get some $$ from outside of the blockchain. Handing over steem to each other wouldn't make everyone rich but the commisioner and make the price go to moon.

You can try an MVP version before those UI changes, upload an image give people the link, and change the image when you found a new customer/advertisement. Primitive version of ad services.

Bid-bots sorry promotional services is not in use for visibility but instant ROI.

People shutting down their facebooks even phones in many cases. Just to avoid tracking, protect their privacy, so they are heading for decentralized networks to avoid it and you are proposing to turn this place into hellborn child of facebook and google.

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Because noone creates that content. We have a magnificiant front page, full of brainfreaking awesome content.

I do not know what you mean. On several other platforms, there are content creators who are creating content worth that much in ads.

First if you want to bring value into steem you have to provide this service with fiat not with steem. So we can actually get some $$ from outside of the blockchain.

I'm fully in support of this. What I'm proposing is the blockchain level protocol that would support this. An entrepreneur / developer from the community would be able to build a 'fiat' advertising platform on top of the protocol.

Bid-bots sorry promotional services is not in use for visibility but instant ROI.

It is used for both. A lot of people are actually paying for bid-bots at a slight loss to get higher visibility.

People shutting down their facebooks even phones in many cases. Just to avoid tracking, protect their privacy, so they are heading for decentralized networks to avoid it and you are proposing to turn this place into hellborn child of facebook and google.

Ads and tracking are two different things.

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Let me try to break it down, first sorry for my bad english, I usually can't express myself in the best way.

In my opinion there is not any good content in steem blockchain. Nothing informative nor inspiring. For example, what kind of advertisement should be displayed on this post?

Huge percentage of advertisement done by tracking, if you search pencil you'll get a pencil ad in the next website you visit (if they are using google adwords).

Even the tracking done with the most ethical way. There is no targeted audience. I can tell this by looking at top 5 active tags. "life, photography, kr, steemit, art".
And without tracking :) ads would be pointless, dog food banners would be displayed on a crypto trading chart post :) it wouldn't be feasible.

Many people sharing daily opinions, experiments in their lives in #life. Which brand would like to be exposed near a girl talking about her cat?

Second is photography, ok let's say someone with camera's could use it. However in terms of use you need to promise that ad won't be displayed in any violent or nsfw content. Is there any indie developer has potential to check those images? Even google has many employees does this manually.
What's going to happen when someone does it and shares a violent image while he has an ad on his post. What would be the response time, how is it going to be annihilated.

Let's deep dive into niches, let's say developers curating code related stuff, and I'm a startup and I want to interact with them through these advertisements. How much ROI can an advertiser offer me? I mean in click-wise or interaction wise (Cost Per Interaction.). 1000k views per day? 10 sign-ups at most?

Let's say everything is ready, we got companies lined up for giving us advertisements.

Why would an end-user use a front-end full with advertisement while all of them open sourced (plus has an option to monetize with beneficiaries)? Someone could easily fork one, disable ads and move on?. Let's say every each of them become closed sourced, is it too hard to write a new one while all the data is out there.

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In my opinion there is not any good content in steem blockchain. Nothing informative nor inspiring. For example, what kind of advertisement should be displayed on this post?

My content is probably not the type that would attract investment from the outside world, but there are probably quite a few Steemians who would pay to increase their exposure.

Huge percentage of advertisement done by tracking, if you search pencil you'll get a pencil ad in the next website you visit (if they are using google adwords).

Tracking is something that would be done at the website/UI level, not the blockchain. Each individual website will chose if/how to participate. As is the nature of a decentralized system, users will have choices, and there will be some websites that interface with the blockchain which do not show ads.

And without tracking :) ads would be pointless, dog food banners would be displayed on a crypto trading chart post :) it wouldn't be feasible.

There are several users who post content that are more applicable to ads. For example, a travel blog.

How much ROI can an advertiser offer me? I mean in click-wise or interaction wise (Cost Per Interaction.). 1000k views per day? 10 sign-ups at most?

This is an entirely different model. There would be no way to track views or clicks.

Someone could easily fork one, disable ads and move on?.

Yep. This is correct. There will be some sites with ads, and some without. Users will have a choice.

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My content is probably not the type that would attract investment from the outside world, but there are probably quite a few Steemians who would pay to increase their exposure.

So if it's going to be implemented into front-ends how would front-ends decide where to display those ads?

Tracking is something that would be done at the website/UI level, not the blockchain.

Blockchain is not that limited we have a custom space for our information. (custom-json) that we can put any information any data into it. However let's say we skip this option, tracking doesn't have to mean tracking every step of a customer, we can still take a look at their online times, likes, comment lengths etc to categorize them.

There are several users who post content that are more applicable to ads. For example, a travel blog.

This is what I'm trying to tell already, tracking doesn't have to mean sneaking through your webcam. Categorizing content, you can't just do it by tags. You need to be sure everyone provides a good content about traveling. I can post a "how car works" blog post into travel category.

There would be no way to track views or clicks.

tracking clicks is not that extreme, it's actually too easy when you provide the link. You just add a variable for the advertiser and done. You can count how many times that link clicked through your forwarding system.

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So if it's going to be implemented into front-ends how would front-ends decide where to display those ads?

That would be for them to decide.

This is what I'm trying to tell already, tracking doesn't have to mean sneaking through your webcam. Categorizing content, you can't just do it by tags. You need to be sure everyone provides a good content about traveling. I can post a "how car works" blog post into travel category.

Going down this path would probably not be a bad thing.

You just add a variable for the advertiser and done. You can count how many times that link clicked through your forwarding system.

yes, but it becomes difficult to provide meaningful data when posts are viewed across many different UIs.

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For me is a great idea!
Hardfork 21 with it! 😀

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It would not require a hardfork.

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Just a DApp implementation?

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👍

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Very interesting.

Brave is my top contender when it comes to monetizing the traditional ad industry. Maybe steem can get a small piece of the pie but that's a long way coming.