Dear Bidbots: Thoughts after the hardfork

4개월 전

Hey guys, I take no quarrel with offering votes for a price. I remember when you had to be in the club to exchange votes. Openness and transparency are better than backroom deals all day long. However, I think things have to change after HF21. This platform is undergoing a lot of effort to clean up abuse, award good authors, and stop the endless siphoning of value. You, the bid bot owners, already have a large impact on the platform, but I think it's going to get larger, and more eyes will be upon you after 21 takes effect Tuesday.

I want to help bidbots that are ethical, practical, and care about Steem to grow. That growth I hope will come from bidbots that don't support this effort...

Downvotes

You guys are getting free downvotes. Of course you have the option to sell these. That might be a profitable service, and I have no quarrel with that in principle.

Assuming you aren't selling downvotes as you don't want to get into the questionable outcomes of that then you're going to have a large pool of downvote power. I'm encouraging you to get some guidelines immediately about types of content you'll flag, when you'll flag, and under what circumstances. If you have questions about it I suggest you talk to other bidbot owners, or the folks from steemcleaners (guiltyparties and anyx) about various practices.

I'd also encourage you to tighten up your standards regarding what content you allow to be bid botted. Right now with only a few notable exceptions people using bidbot services are free to shitpost all day long and upvote it to kingdom come. We need to change this behavior. You're going to want to change it anyway because after 21 this entire community will have free down votes and pure shitposts getting your votes are going to get nuked along with your profits and delegators' tolerance.

Right now several of you choose to allow any content of any quality, but if you continue doing that post hf21 I think you'll die a death of a million paper cuts. I'll help lead the effort.

Seriously, witnesses are implementing EIP to support the price of steem and improve content creation on the platform. I'm not going to see it undermined by bidbot owners who don't give a fuck. Steem price isn't going anywhere with large amounts of stake supporting zero-value posts just so bid bot delegators can receive a profit.

Shit's gotta change. Change has to start with me, and I'm going to put myself in front of your profits all day long until behavior is in line with #newsteem expectations.

If you've already done these thank you. If you haven't then I'd strongly encourage you to create the following.

  1. Guidelines on supported content
  2. Flagging guidelines to support quality content
  3. Arbitration

Time for a change and clean slate

The era of supporting literally anything and everything stops on Tuesday.

If it doesn't stop I plan to run an aggressive campaign against your business, against your delegators, and will try to get Steem delegated to your project moved to a more responsible one.

This isn't an idle request...

I'm not anti-bidbot. I'm coowner of steembottracker so that everyone can transparently and openly get the services you provide. Your service can be very valuable. So can mine. Imagine having a bidbot when no one knows when your vote windows happen... I think it'll be harder to engage in your business. Don't you?

I'm less inclined to set standards for you on what is a zero value shitpost. I want you to come up with guidelines that show what your business is doing to protect and grow the value of Steem for the stake holders.

Change is hard. I hope you'll manage.

Yours truly,

Aggroed

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Ill use the bid bot to save me some hassle and streamline my rewards/votes but i wont sell my downvote. This to me is complete abuse, its a feature i will use now and then if there is something i particularly dont like. I wont use it to bully others or try to be the bigger man, this kind of thing i see on here and personally find it completely toxic. In fact i find myself keeping my opinions to myself sometimes because i know i can be a little over the top for some people.

I hope you read this.

I would like to see a service for daily flagging targets (abuse, spam) for those people who don#t have hours to spent on STEEM each day.
They can just look at the daily post of this new account and find worthy targets in seconds.

Maybe you know someone who could run such an account?

I have the Global Blacklist API available for bid bot owners, yet very few use it.

Then you got a few bid bot owners where the largest abuser is 35% and 60% of their business and won't remove votes unless you pay him additional money.

I don't have a lot of faith for them to do much.

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Why not put all Bidbot owners with no guidelines also on your Blacklist?

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That's not really the goal of the blacklist.

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^ Next level thinking right here.

Posted using Partiko Android

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What would it accomplish...

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Was 1/5 the cost of the amount paid to reverse. That feature is being reworked so it's cost can be equivalent or proportional to the curation lost by the bot at the time.

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This is what you are selling ~60% of your votes for and expecting others to pay you to remove the vote rather than just having some self-respect.

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5x cheaper downvotes paid in liquid was called innovation.

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5x cheaper isn't free.

If you didn't vote that garbage no one would need to pay anything to counter it.

Here here, I have never used a flag on anyone but I think it will become my responsibility to use my downvotes on content which is bidbotted and of questionable quality. I will do this and probably have to face the consequences of retaliation but if enough of the community come together to combat abuse we can win. I like the term you use

I think you'll die a death of a million paper cuts

Roll on HF21. It time to make Steem something we can all be proud of.

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I am in similar shoes as you.
I accidentally downvoted posts or comments once or twice. I remember removing at least one downvote, so I also very rarely (almost never) downvoted anything on the Steem blockchain so far, but after HardFork 21 I will try to use my downvotes in a similar way as you.
Downvoting scam and spam posts/comments is also a good idea, not just/only bidbotted posts with questionable quality.
I will use my downvotes responsibly, and I will downvote only scam/spam posts/comments, and bidbotted posts with bad quality. Maybe I will join the FlagTrail.
I would like to encourage everyone to do the same, and make the Steem blockchain a better place.

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I’m sure a lot will get backlash at first for downvoting, but if they’re abusing, the community will have your back. They can’t flag us all, right? ;) I mean, they could... but how far will they really get?

I definitely think that now that they don’t cost you positive voting power, downvotes should definitely be used to moderate content more. It’s like getting a few free passes to say “I strongly disagree.” :)

Posted using Partiko iOS

Got your back on this. I’ll do whatever I can to out a end to bid bot abuse going unchecked. Those days are over.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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Glad to see larger stakeholders that care. In reading older posts over the past month, I’ve seen times where that seemingly wasn’t the reality of the situation for a lot of them. I might have joined at the perfect time, new hardfork and all, Steem Engine coming about... The price being lower than it has in years.. yea, I came at the perfect time. :)

Posted using Partiko iOS

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Would you think that this is the right time to buy some Steem?
Because many people think (and even do) the opposite.
I am thinking about buying some Steem nowadays at these relatively low prices (around $0.18 USD).
The price was even lower (around $0.16 USD) in the previous days.

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I think it's a wonderful time to buy steem. :)

It has more application than many other cryptos and a vast majority of those have bounced back multiple times, some even to new highs than previously. I see the all time low on coinmarketcap is like $0.06-0.08 for steem, so honestly even if it were to drop that low, I think it's a good buy now.

The idea behind all investing is don't invest more than you can afford to lose... so in my own mind, even if my investment drops by half or less, it's still better than nothing at all.

There are many things we all spend money on daily that never return anything. Why do some bitch and moan about crypto as if it's any different? :P

There are risks, sure, but it is also an investment, an asset, as opposed to a liability.

Alcohol users drink alochol that runs through their system, makes them feel good for a moment, then the moment passes. They have a memory, sure, but not all are good. They still continue to use it. They never receive anything back from that investment though, not financially anyhow. Yet they happily throw money into a pit. At least here, even if you invested $1,000 and lost 90%, you'd have $100 when all was said and done. If you spent $1,000 on alcohol, it would be gone. You lose 100% the second you drink the last of it.

Nice dinners and going out to eat are great, but the money is also gone instantly with no return. The food is gone when it's consumed and that's that. If you spend $200 a month on dinners, you get nothing back. You enjoy yourself, same idea as before, but that's it. Your steak never gives you cash back later on, not even a fraction of it's cost. lol. Short of having rewards back by having some credit card or membership deal of some sort, you're not getting nothing back for your investment beyond some momentary feelings of enjoyment.

Am I saying people shouldn't enjoy themselves? Not at all. :)

I'm saying that it's always a good time to invest in something you believe in.
People throw money away left and right daily, on any number of frivolous things. It only makes sense that something with potential to create more wealth, is a more sensible thing to spend your money on. That is, if you wish to have the potential for much more money. If you don't though, don't take chances, play it safe. Get a job and work a career and do things that way. Many do, no shame in it. :) There are other investment options that can give decent earnings. (Inflation protected bonds and such.)

TL;DR:

Yes, it's a great time to buy. :) Even if it reaches it's previous low, that's still down only half from the current price. I see steem making huge recoveries in price in the near future.

I hope to see those free downvotes put to good use. The Steem Flag Rewards team can offer suggestions on where they can be applied. We have the opportunity to build a better Steem where good content gets the rewards it deserves and junk disappears from trending. Let's make it happen!

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Not to be rude but I am not even sure if @aggroed acknowledges our existence or has been actively avoiding it.

I am doubtful that he is unaware of our work considering the sheer number of flag mention comment. I mean if he was he would have to be somewhat oblivious to chain activity for a witness that is.

He didn't respond to my last light-hearted meme so I'm not sure how I should take everything as a whole. It's kind of a slap in the face from the countless hours of work we all put in.

I want to know @aggroed. Do you still not know what SFR is or do you not value the work enough to give us a nod???

@steemflagrewards

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Well there is no harm in asking. We seem to have similar aims, so why not work together?

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I would but...

It seems he is rather trying to do whatever he can to not support and already existing project and community that addresses bid bot abuse specifically than create his own (probably so he can slap his name on it like he does everything else). Whatever.

We were building a community around good flagging before it was cool. We were flagging bid bot abuse while Aggroed was proxy bidding his meh content to gross payouts. I remember. I am like a blockchain elephant.

I never forget

Maybe he's changed but he never apologized. He made excuses. I'm pretty good at reading people and I'm detecting high levels of insincerity and maybe even bandwagoning. Wished ppl round here were at least a bit more discerning.

What Aggroed did here is a huge FU to our work. I would love be to work towards common goals but now the onus is on him.

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It's easy to miss the true intentions of people when you just have a post to go by. I do think SFR deserves far more recognition. We are lucky to have a few big supporters or we could have much less impact. We have proven we are dedicated. I don't like to burn boats, so I would keep the door open to anyone who can help. You know I'm an optimist :)

Regardless of my opinions on bid bots, this is precisely the kind of conflicts of interest that many of us were talking about when it was announced that you would be on STINC’s delegation committee...


4A425953-7201-42C5-A3B7-2FD2D4169E50.jpeg


That’s quite disgusting from an ethical standpoint. The fact that you didn’t even consider the ethics/conflicts with this is pretty remarkable and offers valuable insight into your character. I think @elipowell should be ashamed, but I know she’s not. Ethical behavior seems to be non-existent in most of crypto and particularly around this platform and its “leadership.”

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Where’s the conflict? None of the bidbots receive delegations from steemit. What I’m talking about is running bidbots that don’t act ethically out of business. The delegation discussed here is whales putting Steem on these projects. It’s not Steemit based. Normally your trolling and negativity has at least a modicum of thoughtfulness. You should reread this with out your current distaste for me and realize how dumb you sound.

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Bidbots are all unethical. Society is people, just like Soylent Green. Every bot vote is a degradation of humanity. A substantial reason Steem social media is not succeeding at retaining users is that users are not more competent at financial manipulation than automated mechanisms.

Worse, financial manipulation has been demonstrably established as the heart and soul of Steem. Social engineering is yet one skill people, such as ninjaminers, are better at than bots, and HF21 is evidence of that.

You have done a great deal for Steem society, and I laud you for it. Running a bidbot is not advancing Steem society, but degrading it, and I do not support you in that effort. In truth such profiteering is going to continue to decrease the price of Steem, user retention, and market cap until it is no longer practiced or Steem dies.

Steem has dropped over 50 places on CMC since I first told you that. I look forward to the day when you decide to end your support for bots and apply your considerable skill to supporting society - people - exclusively. Steem incorporates technology that enables voluntarist governance. Wasting that on mere economic gain is tragic.

People need to be empowered to effect their values as policies, and selling that power for tokens is unethical. That's what bots do. Please stop.

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!dramatoken

Every bidbot vote is not unethical. You are confusing your own opinion with reality

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@whatsup,

Every bidbot vote is not unethical. You are confusing your own opinion with reality

I'm with @valued-customer on this one.

What voting-based system could you name where the very definition of corruption is not "vote-buying?"

Either we want a Meritocracy or we don't. If we do, people cannot be allowed to buy votes. Imagine if one could simply buy the votes necessary to win a Nobel Prize or an Olympic Gold. What would such honors be worth ... absolutely nothing. They are ONLY worth something because they cannot be purchased. They have to be earned.

This is such a basic concept that I am flabbergasted that it even needs to be mentioned.

Go randomly pick 10 posts from Trending and choose the one you believe to be of the highest quality. Now go pick ANY post appearing on my blog. The best of the former vs the worst of mine. Now publish a post linking them both and ask your audience to decide which was better. Now compare the post payouts.

At what point ought one feel shame?

Although it hurts me to say, I have been ashamed of Steemit for a very long time.

Quill

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I never thought the vision of Steem was to find the best post and make sure it earns the most.

I consider it a social media site where the "Owners" pick the winners. I am not arguing that they have done a good job with this.

I think many posts that end up on trending are important information or discussions.

I understand the point of view, I just think you have to make the assumption that everyone has the same goal as you do to consider it unethical.

I happen to think Steem is perfectly fair from a stakeholders point of view. I get to allocate exactly the correct percentage of the inflation pool as what I own.

I am not saying I think the stakeholders are making excellent choices.

If I hold more stake than I can vote with it is my possession and I should be allow to sell the bi-product of that (votes to whomever I please) AGAIN... Not saying it is going well. If they sell too many too often we end up where we are right now, no one wants to use it.

I guess the only thing I am saying is that it isn't as black and white as he claims.

DPOS I get it and it sounds good on paper, I just don't think I care for it.

It makes sense that the largest stakeholders decide the direction of a project, I just expected them to have more intelligence about what they are and are not good at. :)

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@whatsup,

What you say is true (and articulately expressed).

Here's what's also true: A "product" has been created that no one wants, with the exception of the vote-buyers/sellers. Once everyone else leaves, which we are perilously close to, all those votes will be worthless ... as will be the SP that generates them.

It doesn't matter what's theoretically right or wrong if, pragmatically, it causes the entire system to crash.

You spoke of "owners" ... for that which is owned to be worth anything, there must be customers. This customer feels shafted and he is not alone. This cannot, and will not, go on for much longer.

Indeed, unless the Voice launch turns out to be an utter disaster (and @dan has more than enough money to ensure that it doesn't), September 23 may be the day that the STEEM/Steemit charade finally comes to an end.

It's too bad because I and a lot of other good people love this place. But enough is enough. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I'm tired of feeling like an idiot.

Quill

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@whatsup, you said,

It makes sense for the largest stakeholders to determine the direction of a project.

Maybe that's the problem. When you start a project, it looks like it's the wrong way to get the biggest stakeholders first to decide what the functions should look like. Wouldn't it be wiser, if you want to create a good product/service, to really want to bring this product to its full potential first?

Everything seems to be the other way around here. First the investors and then the development up to the product maturity? That would be like putting a seedling in the soil and pumping it so full of fertilizer that it can yield a lot very quickly, although the fruit tastes much better when the process has enough time to get to the true goodness.

Take for example a service like WordPress or deepl.com. The former was an open source project and the developers were interested in the product and how to do it so well that you could be satisfied with it yourself.

Along the way, many minds have tried to make it good, just like with Linux. At deepl. I don't know how open source the whole thing was. But it was, similar to facebook and youtube, in an initially slow growth. While the users tried it, the developers learned to make changes and the programmers learned to write the code.

The investors came later: A company that wants to make first-class products chooses its investors well. These selected investors don't exist here. Anyone can join in and then say that they are an investor. On the basis of this logic, wouldn't one have to say that no matter how big a share someone holds, he should have the same voting entitlement?

Why should those with many shares be wiser than those with few? Or vice versa? It has nothing to do with intelligence, how much or how little I have. It's more about how well you want to make a product and whether you can imagine that the later beneficiaries will like it so much that it will inevitably develop into a mass market.

I find one can better rely on the intelligence of the many interested and curious ones instead of that of the largest stakeholders.

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Society is comprised of people and enabling mechanisms to vote degrades society. It is not my confusion that engenders our disagreement.

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I reject your reality and insert my own!

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Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

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Let's set the record straight. Actually; you said you had a conflict of interest during a podcast interview.

I upvoted your post as I am no fan of upvote bots. I no longer auto-upvote, follow curation trails, or use upvote bots (I tried using BroRando, but did not do it right) though I have used them in the past. I do not agree with your aggressive threat.

The era of supporting literally anything and everything stops on Tuesday.
If it doesn't stop I plan to run an aggressive campaign against your business, against your delegators, and will try to get Steem delegated to your project moved to a more responsible one.

Guess I will just add you to the list of bully oligarchs here on STEEM. By you own ultimatum you have earned that title. You have not only threatened the bid-bot owners to bend to your will but the delegaters as well (most who delegate are just minnows trying to make-it here on STEEM. Just like your PAL delegaters.) The statement above shows that you are under the impression that you are now running things. I warned others in the past, I am pretty good at reading people.

I realize that this is a DPOS platform. As a stake-holder myself I have an interest in this platform. @ats-david has also, in many ways (in the background) remained loyal to this platform.

After rereading your post I regret upvoting it. I should have read it better. I will leave my upvote as I am not an Indian-giver. I will take away my Bitmoji though as now after reading the whole thing better, I don't love it.

Kudos for your involvement in the side-chain steem-engine. I play with it myself. If all the notifications I get from GITHUB are any indication, it has pushed many to get the SMT thingy going. Everyone is also thankful for SteemMonsters/Spinterlands helping the Steem platform, but most of its success was due to crowd sourced work just like many projects here on STEEM.

If I have said anything that are believed to be unsubstantiated, by all means, set me straight. I said on numerous occasions in the Foundation server (both drunk and sober) that you would be a big part of the Foundation. Even this hog can find a truffle (truth) now and again.

@jerrybanfield may have been despised by many for various reasons, but at least there has never been any shame in his game nor did he ever flex his financial muscles and make public threats.

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You should reread this with out your current distaste for me...

My distaste for you is not just "current."

Also...it's without. Only one word. It's compound.

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Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

100% behind you on this

Posted using Partiko Android

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I can think of a similar project that already deals with bid bot abuse.

Wonder why Aggroed seems to give SFR no consideration. Kind of disappointing to be honest.

Posted using Partiko Android

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It's a valid grievance especially considering him being on the delegation theory.

Not a fan of bid bots at all, but holding them all accountable for voting unmitigated garbage is a step in the right direction. Add me to that downvote trail.

Posted using Partiko Android

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Bidbots add nothing to the platform, and nothing to the general user. They are just a pariah-layer. But if some of them could be killed, fine with me.

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There is no reasonable justification for bid bots when promotion mechanism can be cooked into a front end easily. Just needs to be a popular front end.

They are a vistigial structure no longer needed like snake stumps but their apologists will continue to try and perpetuate the lie that they are somehow good or an asset.

They are not. And I would say most likely the apologist has his or her hand in the cookie jar as well.

That's why I have mixed feeling about @aggroed as it seems he speaks out of both sides of his mouth at times.

This language I thought was peculiar

You, bid bot owners,

Considering @aggroed himself owns @lovejuice so I'm kind of at a loss as to why he would phrase it as if he were not among the group he is addressing.

I am tempted to think it's political maneuvering as if he wants to purport that he is not "one of them" and it seems to be working based on other responses.

I don't necessarily like to stir up shit but something isn't sitting well with me here.

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The promotion tools were always broken, but they were actually meant to be one of the important ways to bring back value to the community. Right now the bidbots are just devaluing the community by pulling out money and becoming so filthy rich that they control the whole thing. I agree that voting down posts in trending that use bidbots (any bidbot) might be a way to do it. Maybe just start from the top every day.

I have never really flagged anyone for the last three years, but I have become a bit tired of the state of things.

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I can see where you're coming from a little more clearly now. If he starts actually downvoting stuff that I would probably downvote myself, I would be happy with that as compared to before. It's incremental progress that we can build on. If this is just signaling virtue to prop up his own bot, my respect meter would drop appropriately. I would hope that his threat against bid bot abuse would include actually collaborating with the existing community already working towards that end.

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Ah yes, because a group of "businesses", where most can't be bothered to come up with what they shouldn't upvote, would totally be responsible with their free downvoting power as well.

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I meant the Aggroed downvote trail, but okay. If bot owners want to make their downvote power available to downvote themselves, who am I to stop them? lol

Posted using Partiko Android

You have and still can or need to join a club to get votes. If I do not join communities, am not working my ass of by commenting each post I read (with my mobile phone) no one will notice me or vote any of my posts.

The bidbots are not the main problem here but the fact this platform is not rewarding good content. It is an illusion they do. Ask the writers, the real ones and you know it is not true.

You can write a week over a good article or story and earn 0.
You can post 1 line plus link and have the jackpot here.

According to Steemit inc good content is 20$ or more. You earn less? You write shit to their opinion.

Without some big whales or a community voting for you, you are a loser here and the bit you earn can be taken away by being flagged for no reason.

Why? Because this is a place for investors. They have to earn the rest, we, are (we're) the bait to make it more interesting.

Posted using Partiko Android

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According to Steemit inc good content is 20$ or more.

They said 20 Steem worth not $20 but still. I hear ya

Posted using Partiko Android

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I do not have a Steem sign on my keyboard and this is exactly what is shown to me if I see the earnings the $ sign. We all know what that means and what it means to Steemit.

Thanks for hearing me, I appreciate it you took the time to answer.

Pity so far no one can tell me what is the great thing about steem, why joining the platform. I hope someone will.

We promoted like idiots also during #seven77 and I ask myself why.

💕

Posted using Partiko Android

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I do not have a Steem sign on my keyboard and this is exactly what is shown to me if I see the earnings the $ sign. We all know what that means and what it means to Steemit.

The difference between recognizing an error and justifying/excusing an error.

You know what is a great thing about steem? Even someone who doesn't care for correcting their errors (and ergo their premise built on those errors) and holds such a poor opinion of this place, the major stakeholders and the majority of people here, still has the potential to earn. In other words, you, the self titled idiots.

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Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate it you took the time to encourage me.
I wish you a great day 💕

Posted using Partiko Android

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Thanks for your sarcasm, may you burn in emoji hell.

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Thank you. Add some hell of a pain to it and I know the reason why.
I wish you a great life and steeming day without critics and comments. 💕

Posted using Partiko Android

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You're welcome.

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"...we're the bait..."

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, only worse.

Thanks!

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Here you are, still trying put your wedge into any little crevice you can find to further your mo of spreading FUD.

@aggroed,
No comments, just $trdo

Cheers~

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Congratulations @theguruasia, you are successfuly trended the post that shared by @aggroed!
@aggroed got 6 TRDO & @theguruasia got 4 TRDO!

"Call TRDO, Your Comment Worth Something!"

To view or trade TRDO go to steem-engine.com
Token distribution bot developed by @ali-h

I'm less inclined to set standards for you on what is a zero value shitpost. I want you to come up with guidelines that show what your business is doing to protect and grow the value of Steem for the stake holders.

Now, if only they would read this. They won't.

They won't notice until their profits are hurting. Until the bot's rep is taking a hit, etc.

Flagged for extortion. Are you Bernie?

FFS @aggroed, I have expected better from you, despite our disagreements.

Please reconsider your tactics and undertake to effect your goals without making threats that border on criminal acts. You could have stated that you would be flagging shitposts all botted up and left it at that. Instead you threatened to so flag unless your competitors obeyed your recommendations. That difference may seem mere semantics, but it is the difference between a threat and a promise.

Thank you for your consideration.

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Competitors? They’re more like customers. I provide a free service to them.

What I do with my Steem and my time and coordination efforts is my business. I have a right to interact with unethical bidbots however I want. Liberty is a motherfucker like that. Hf21 is largely about stopping reward pool rape on an unchecked linear rewards clusterfuck.

I’m going to protect Steem, my home, from people hurting it. I’ll organize the neighborhood watch to do it.

You’ve been here long enough to know not to be a whiny, entitled, fool when it to pre-distributed rewards, but right now you sound like one. Please re-evaluate your thought process.

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Decrying extortion is not claiming entitlement to rewards. Rather extortion depends on pandering to stake, as only stake weighting is potentially a threat on Steem. Your threats are based on your own entitlement to power due to the weight of your stake. Projection is demonstration of denial, and you are projecting all over me.

However, I will note that the community needs to be rewarded for creation of content in order for that content to be created, and thereby add value to Steem. Insofar as extracting value from that chain using stake weighting diminishes the rewards creators attain, bidbots prevent that value from inuring to Steem. Were that a small matter, it would be inconsequential, but stake weighting extracts ~90% of rewards already, and HF21 is going to decrease the rewards allowed to trickle down to creators by more than half. Rather than inconsequential, it is existential.

Not only am I correct that bots voting equally with humanity degrades humanity, but they are also reducing capital gains, and vectors of profiteering that are destroying Steem. There are reasons society engenders certain ethical and moral standards, including hard work, self sacrifice for the greater good, and etc... Building society requires foregoing potential personal rewards.

You demonstrate those values well, but not by running a bidbot. Even the most ethically run bidbot must extract value from the content of creators to be profitable, and thus degrades the society and the value of Steem. Threatening people if they don't vote or deploy their stake as you desire is what you have done, and projecting that onto me doesn't change that fact. I simply note that some things are harmful, some are beneficial, and generally act to promote the beneficial.

Extortion is harmful, and the reflection of pandering. Look in that mirror before you accuse me. No matter how you sift my history on Steem, you will not find examples of pandering, extortion, profiteering, or entitlement. If you do, I will be grateful to have it pointed out to me, so I can rectify the situation.

"I have a right to interact with unethical bidbots however I want."

I disagree that you have a right to do anything you want with your stake, because some things you can do with stake are illegal, and others unethical and harmful. Your rights end where other's rights begin. Freedom is accompanied by responsibility. Liberty is not libertine.

"I’m going to protect Steem, my home, from people hurting it."

Then quit destroying the value of Steem by running a bidbot.

Capital gains FTW.

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I recall @grumpycat did that and it seemed largely successful.

The funny thing is, I don't think those bot owners care unless their profits are hurting.

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And what is wrong with threatening that if they don't change he will flag, no different than threatening to flag shit posts.

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I note your support for extortion in support of @aggroed.

It is not a recommendation rational people will find reasonable.

Thanks!

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Not extortion. You seem OK with him threatening to flag low content, but draw the line in the sand at him threatening the bot owners.

Extortion, you're a hoot.

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BTW, my support? Sure. I note your evasion regarding my initial question.

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You know what I call what you're doing? Posturing, I just gave you a chance to discuss what is not right with him saying that he will flag shit posts, which is no different than him threatening to flag bot owners who support shitposting, but instead of entering into the discussion you want to assume I support what his doing for asking such a question, and claim that it's extortion, something rational people don't find reasonable, of course.

I will downvote any bidbot post upvoted from bidbots who don't burn part of their rewards.

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Burning a part of the rewards is a step in the right direction but if it is only a small part that hardly matters. 10% being burned (i.e. contributing directly to increasing the value of Steem) still means 90% being milked out.

Still, the mental model of looking for value contributed to Steem is a good one.

@aggroed, This step is needed because definitely Value Oriented content deserve it's place and Bid Bots have to come up with Mechanism which will help in the process of including Value Adding Content. Keep up.

Posted using Partiko Android

Well put, community first and cleaning up our Blockchain to make our Steem and everything in it grow in value..... I'm ready no matter the outcome, for we are all learning on how to make Steem great agian....... 🤣🤣🤣👆🏾 Had to throw the last part in.... Haha but seriously I want Steem to be great for us all.....💯

Posted using Partiko Android

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Haha it always makes me grin when Dump says “make America great again.” Cuz America is shit and always has been. The dark history and even present that we exist in, have never been great. Gotta be great before you can be great “again.” 😂🤷🏻‍♂️

Posted using Partiko iOS

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P.S. - I hate the politicians, none of them represent me. Same goes for a lot of Americans. Our country sucks.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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Excuse me sir, but apparently you have never heard of deep-fried twinkies.... If a place with deep-fried twinkies is not the land of the free, I don't know what is!

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Ok, ok, ya got me there. ;) LOL!

Only had them once or twice in my life, not a huge fan of sweets, but they sure were good.

I'll keep politics out of this... lol... but I will say: Boy do I wish we truly were free. All of us. The human race. Too many groups with too many power keeping too many of us down for their own gain. :( I have hope for a better future though. Time will tell. ;)

This is actually not that hard... @ocd has a great project that only allows good quality content to be upvoted, same with @qurator... just talk to them and get their list of whitelisted people, and ofc, add people day in day out to the list, if they decide to go out of line they can be removed from the whitelist forever.

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Every bidbot owner should do the same, and the Steem blockchain would be a much better place.
Probably the interest in (and the price of) the Steem would be also higher.

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Hey, @teutonium. We talked a while ago in the discord chat, didn't we?

I don't get it. What does it mean "go to?" Talk to them in the chat?

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Not sure if we talked on discord or through steem :/

I didn't say "go to" anywhere, the closest is "to go out of line"... if you are talking about the "to go out of line" part, there are many people that, through the system I'm mentioning, would get accepted into it and after they would just write spam and get a bidbot with a whitelist to upvote their posts, the only mechanism to prevent this would be to blacklist.

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sorry, my mistake. You said "talk to them".
Thanks for responding.
Your name sounded familiar. I thought, we met in the steemstem-channel.

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ohhh wait, maybe that's where we meet xD I haven't been on the SteemStem channel in a while now, haven't had much time to write a SteemStem post, those are hard, really hard...

These bidbots will just find a way to see a loophole, they are like water.

I 100% agree with everything in this post. The minnows and Dolphins have had no choice but to either leave Steem or utilize what was available. Bitbot owners who are trying to fund development of another steem project now have steem-engine, and if their project is good people will support it hand over fist, and if the project is shit than it deserves shit. Bitbots strong-arm the ecosystem to rely on them to compete for views on a platform that is all but dead, and the only defense they can come up with is that they are funding a project.

I'm glad to see this hardfork like no other. Hopefully the abuse can stop and Steem can actually be for the people and by the people instead of the racketeering that bidbot owners have been pulling off for too long. We don't need a god damned middleman to use Steem, that's why we opt into crypto in the first place ffs.

#newera

Dear Bidbots:..

The problem is not the bidbots, but some greedy users.

Thanks for this - some light at the end of the tunnel!

I hope people use their flags for content that is stolen, spam, hate, etc and not flag someone just because they don't like that person.

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Yeah... not happening though. When you give kids a stick there will be injuries. Realistically, humans are terrible at accepting criticism, so when you downvote them, they're going to want to downvote you back. And every stupid idea anyone has to prevent that from happening is authoritarianism, which is contradictory to the very idea of a decentralized application.

I just wish everyone would focus on upvoting quality work, not going after poor quality work. It would create a more positive energy on Steem. It is my belief that all this downvote power that will suddenly enter the community is going to make a very ugly environment of aggression.

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If you just down vote with no explanation that doesn't tell me what I did. Which leads me to think the person doesn't like me

Posted using Partiko Android

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"When you give kids a stick there will be injuries."

Ban sticks. No one needs sticks in [current year].

banhands.jpg

Srsly though, you are completely right, and few know this better than I as a result of experience. The ability to buy and sell flags is about to begin. We see that professional flaggers already are financially supported on Steem, and 25% of VP is about to be available to that market without appreciable cost to potential sellers of that VP.

I have been saying that the downvote pool is going to be the worst aspect of HF21, and this despite the terrible financial impact more than halving author rewards is going to have on onboarding and user retention.

Buckle up. The consequences of the flag market will never be the same. I, for one, here salute our new robot overlords:

fuckyou.jpg

Note: banning hands will make banning sticks unnecessary, as well as salutes impossible. Food for thought.

I DO NOT recommend what I do, as I don't care about money, and I will experience financial loss as a result of my actions.

Don't do it. Sheep that obey the shepherd get pastured on good grass. Feral sheep get the wolf. I am here for the wolves. From time to time, feral sheep are eaten by wolves, and that keeps wolves from eating obedient sheep.

Until then, I am free of the corral.

It is not often grasped that flags return rewards to the pool, where whales then have another go at them. Since whales extract ~90% of rewards, and HF21 will reduce author rewards by more than half, flagging (with free flags) will become a far more financially rewarding act for substantial stakeholders.

I'd quote Samuel Adams for everyone here, but instead will let the community self segregate. Life is an act of war.

Peace.

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and this despite the terrible financial impact more than halving author rewards is going to have on onboarding and user retention.

Hashtag the half dozen and ever growing tribes that implemented 50/50 with absolutely no such impact, in fact it's completely opposite of what you forsee. Now, let's see how right you are about free downvotes.

Some of this, well a lot, I agree with. However I do not like people telling me how or what I should vote on, so I can not support anything that tells others how or what to vote on. I still see nothing changing with HF21, I have never believed the use of bots would decline, I still do not think that will happen, and evidently from your post you do not think it will happen either, so HF21 is going to be a failure at resolving this issue. I also still believe it will be a failure at the down vote issue being used primarily for excessive rewards.

I honestly hope it all works out, I after all do still use the steemit front end, (mainly because I do not see the ads). I still think that steem block chain can be a fantastic social place if the down vote issue could ever get resolved.

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There are much better Steem blockchain interfaces than Steemit.
For example SteemPeak, Busy, and eSteem.
There is even a desktop app for the latter, called eSteem Surfer, so you don't even have to/need to use your traditional web browser to interact with the Steem blockchain.
And eSteem Surfer have other advantages over Steemit and other interfaces.
For example you are continuously "mining" (collecting) eSteem Points (ESTM) while you use the application.
You can earn eSteem Points (ESTM) By upvoting, resteeming, posting/commenting, and even by simply using the application.
You can use these eSteem Points (ESTM) for various things, including post promoting/post boosting, and many more features/use cases are being developed at this time, such as getting Steem Power delegation for eSteem Points (ESTM), so there already are many use cases for eSteem Points (ESTM), and there will be even more.
I am writing this comment from eSteem Surfer 2.2.0.

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I am aware of a lot of the interfaces, have tried a few, I actually like the way steemit works, basic. I just don't like the ads, but fortunately I do not see the ads. For what ever reason, good ad blocker, or virus stuff or what not. I know steampeak is head and shoulders above steemit in quality and look and useful things built in, my wife uses it. I see a lot of the front ends as the old browser wars, I think it unfortunate that Netscape lost out to microsoft. We get use to a way a thing looks and how it functions, and we learn the work a-rounds.

Some things need fixing, some things need altering, and some things just need to be done away with. One thing that the Owners of Steem Block Chain need to do is figure out what they are, and perhaps stop trying to be the JOAT, (Jack Of All Trades) of all block chains. Specialize in one or two, get the kinks for them ironed out, then expand.

We're working on it!

Continuing the status quo is not an option, as stated in our most recent post (The Future: HF21 and beyond). We don't have an ETA for the major changes yet.

In the post, we also made clear that selling downvotes is not something we stand for or will support in any way. If those "free"-downvotes are going to be used, then only for the good of Steem and not for profit. However, there do need to be guidelines in place to prevent abuse or wrongly-placed downvotes.

What is the benefit of a steem user “who doesn’t use bidbot and yet cannot produce high quality content of your standards, or everyone else standards?”

Posted using Partiko iOS

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As one of the users you are referring to, I often wonder about standards and who sets them. I do not use bidbots as I am here for community. Some followers are kind enough to upvote my content and this engagement will eventually help bring me out of my shell and enable me to take a stab at writing more which would enable me to hopefully become better. I just hope for positive encouragement which would make the growth easier.

Posted using Partiko Android

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They can still be good curators. Not everyone needs to an author/content creator.

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The focus on money on Steem social media is unfortunate. Social doesn't mean financial. Society is comprised of people, and people have value far beyond their ability to write and produce content, as well as their ability to consume.

The narrative of the ninjaminers that have focused Steem on profiteering is harmful to society; to the social media platform, and we see as a result various effects that have degraded user retention, Steem distribution, price, and market cap, and more.

I do not accuse you of being one of them, but note in this comment you seem to further that narrative. People participating in society have far more value than their economic impact, and that's a fact. One of the things I anticipate from communities is that some of those communities are going to focus not on money, but on more valuable aspects of society.

If we're just mining tokens here, we'll be well rid of it when Steem dies. We're not, and unless that fact becomes far more recognized and supported, we'll lose all that potential value when Steem dies, because if it doesn't become more than a Steem mining device, it will die.

Steem can change the world, because it is a platform that potentiates completely voluntary governance from beginning to end, including financing public projects. The financial mechanism is not the primary import of such a model, and despite the ignorance of folks incapable of seeing beyond their wallets, society yet may benefit in paradigm transforming ways from Steem.

Let's hope HF21 doesn't kill it before that can be realized.

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You are half right and half wrong.
Let's be honest. Or at least I am not going to lie. Many people are using the Steem blockchain primarily to earn money.
I am not different. I would not use the Steem blockchain without the money earning opportunity.
The reason I registered my Steem account was the opportunity to be able to earn money. This reason applies to most of the users.
And who can blame them? Even Steemit advertise itself with this:
"Get paid for good content. Post and upvote articles on Steemit to get your share of the daily rewards pool" and "Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sign up. Get STEEM"
I saw the dollar sign with the amount at the end of a blog post, and the under that the above quoted text, and this is the reason why I registered my Steem account. To earn Steem/Steem Power and Steem Dollars (SBD).
But of course people are much more than good curators.
You are right in this.
If someone asks a question, and another user answers the question, then that is good, and the answering user is helpful, his comment is informative and valuable.
If someone comments a funny comment (or simply a joke) under someone else's post, then that comment is useful, because that comment could make the readers happy (smile and/or laugh).

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You do not here contradict anything I have said. Please indicate what is 'half wrong' in my prior comment, as you do not do so here.

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I thought that it is obvious.
Making me look/feel bad just because I am focusing on money on the Steem blockchain, while the whole point of the blockchain is the money.
You wrote

I do not accuse you of being one of them, but note in this comment you seem to further that narrative.

You did not openly accused, but assumed. But you do not need to do any of them. Of course I do. And almost everyone else do the same (focus on money on the Steem blockchain). You act as if it were a bad thing, but it is not. This is just how the things work on the Steem blockchain.

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He's of the mind that getting rewarded for work, renders the work as ignoble. No joke.

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You string words together seemingly randomly, with no basis in reality.

That's the joke.

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Money is not bad. Caring more about money than people results in, and is a result of, misunderstanding the real benefits and value of society. That is bad.

I did not assume, and simply noted the apparent intent of your comment.

Mike Tyson once said that Don King would sell his momma for a dolla. Such people exist, and are logically extending a focus on finance over more valuable aspects of society. It is obvious that doing so ultimately harms people, and destroys society. Steem is failing, because it is a society, and those with the most stake value their stake more than they do the society.

Profiteering destroys the business profiteers extract value from. That is what is happening to Steem. Almost no experienced investors employ profiteering as SOP, because destroying businesses is less profitable, less productive of ROI, in the long run. Warren Buffet is an investor that increases the value of the underlying investment vehicle, builds the businesses he invests in, and as a result has become one of the most successful investors in the world.

"This is just how the things work on the Steem blockchain."

And this is why the Steem blockchain is failing, and needs to be forked to prevent it's death right now. Unfortunately, HF21 is exactly the opposite of what is needed, and makes profiteering more attractive. It encourages greater extraction via stake weighting of the value created by users rather than allowing that value to increase the value of the investment vehicle, Steem.

Capital gains FTW. Profiteering = destruction.

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@xplosive, You sure, you're here for the money? I wonder how money can be a motive, at all. Isn't it curiosity, interest, a personal motif?

I state, that actually nobody comes for the money, but thinks he does. :-D

Glad to see someone speeking out loud ....

A great challenge. It will be interesting to see the reactions. If any :)

Disclaimer:
I haven't used a bidbot in a long long time. I delegate some SP to @runningproject ie @isotonic because I feel strongly about running-related content.

For sure! We all spend too much time on our posts for the shit posts to continuously rape the rewards pool. It's going to be a new era for Steem and give us tools to help user that era in. Way to take the lead!

Sir we understand that you are working hard to get steem up price but 99% percent people are unhappy with new fork because newbie author is getting no reward and no one upvoting a new posts even a new post written very good because half vote cut due to a post less then 20 steem i think make it to 5 steem instead of 20 , 20 steem is very high target for a newbie ,and second thing if there is spam and abuse and upvoting buying people spam but also buy steem but after hardfork if no one able to earn good money why a steem power holder will hold his power , and why a author will buy steem ? i hope i am wrong but things are contemplating did you see the price of steem still dropping hard and i bet it can drop to 2 cent if there is no reward for authors

Take on the changes and bring Steem to a higher level! Be gone to those days of bid bots abuse.

Posted using Partiko iOS

This post has been included in the latest edition of The Steem News - a compilation of the key news stories on the Steem blockchain.

Steembottracker enables most of the bot activity, it essentially is the gateway of bidbots, the easiest thing to do to regulate dodgey bitbots is simply deslist them from steembottracker, problem solved.

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Exactly. Steembottracker is one of his community services, so if some bots misbehave, an easy way to hurt their harmful business model is delisting.

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The global directory aspect is valuable for monitoring them if nothing else. I'd put unapproved bots on a secondary/hidden page instead of entirely delisting them which makes them harder to keep tabs on.

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Yeah like a shit list :)

Lead the way with #NewSteem :)

Loud and clear.
Thanks.
Resteem.

They can't say they were not warned.

This is the most important post on this platform ever!

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Let's be honest, most likely no bidbot is gonna change it's ways unless forced, it's a way too profitable market.

Congratulations @aggroed!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:

  • Comments - Ranked 1 with 79 comments

I would delegate to any project willing to combat the abuse of bid-bots and already use my down-votes especially in the tribes. Personally I'm against them altogether but they are going now where so it is a case of trying to manage the worst of it now.

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Hi @niallon11. Well you're in luck. Check out @steemflagrewards.

We're a flag happy bunch and LOVE to flag bid bot abuse. And our bot pays us to do it.

Posted using Partiko Android

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Had a look at it there but you're not doing all that much flagging. Only 7 different users in the past week and mostly just upvotes to different accounts.

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How did you quantify that and does it include all follow on flags?

That's why we need a public facing database as our reports only give a glimpse.

The bot itself upvotes flaggers when they redeem tokens rewarded for flagging. When SP is idle, admins will manually flag known abusers or vote moderator posts.

We've approved something over 40k flags and removed on the low side somewhere around 1000 SBD.

So, not sure exactly where you are getting your data but am interested to know. Thanks

Posted using Partiko Android

Hi, @aggroed!

You just got a 0.14% upvote from SteemPlus!
To get higher upvotes, earn more SteemPlus Points (SPP). On your Steemit wallet, check your SPP balance and click on "How to earn SPP?" to find out all the ways to earn.
If you're not using SteemPlus yet, please check our last posts in here to see the many ways in which SteemPlus can improve your Steem experience on Steemit and Busy.

Why do you sound as if the bot business is a personal threat to you? Because it is? Then, why is it?

There are as many opinions as there are forms of expression. Also here on Steemit. The diversity of the comments shows that very nicely. Why shouldn't the community decide how it wants to deal with content and bidbots on the basis of a democratic consensus election, based on a simple procedure that could be set up at any time? Which I describe here.

My own behaviour may serve as a yardstick, and I assume that most people are like that. One day I am completely unimpressed by whether someone is stuffing their pockets, another day or at another hour I am not. I have mood swings and I have different reactions. My lifestyle may change, so may my circumstances, and on the basis of these events I decide sometimes so and sometimes differently. I call it the reality of life.

There should be an opportunity to incorporate this into decisions: On the one hand about the amount/ratio of the distribution of my payouts as well as about my intentions to vote someone down.

Why not support the moment of decision by incorporating a "rethink" option?

In this way, I am urged to check every single post, every single comment and every single reaction, positive or negative. This could be solved technically quite easily. It would probably have a greater diversity in the whole system if I didn't always have to choose between two or not enough options. A technically built-in time delay between impulse and execution. That doesn't exist here at all yet.

Bring in hf21, more curation rewards I say, the bots will sort themselves out hopefully

Posted using Partiko iOS

Are we getting a downvote curation trail by you? I think a lot of people would join.

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If you (or anyone else) are looking for a downvote trail, then there is a downvote trail, which flags abuse.
FlagTrail introduction by @reazuliqbal.
This FlagTrail probably flags all kinds of abuse, not just bidbot abuse, but I currently do not have any personal experience with it.

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Thanks for mentioning it. It only contents flagged by the community and approved by the @steemflagrewards.

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Why is Aggroed trying to recreate the wheel instead of supporting a downvote trail that exists would be my question...

Posted using Partiko Android

Glad to see people taking preemptive action on this. :) I use bid bots sometimes and I’ve seen my vote value be sucked up by some horribly shitty posts. Not that mine are spectacular, but I drop a bit here and there for my posts. To have it sucked up by a meme that got $20 somehow is fucking ridiculous. Thank you for being a leader in this time of transition! I think if more people take steps like this and look out for the greater good of the platform, we will see a large rise in new users. :)

Posted using Partiko iOS

100% @aggroed is the game changer of steem. I am die hard fan of Aggroed sir.