Do you think Palnet "holds no value" and disagree with minnowsupport bot?

지난달
in sct

Recently, I learned that some Korean users, including myself, were downvoted by users that they do not know. I didn't really know why that happened.

And several hours ago, I found that @whatsup and @tarazkp left replies after downvoting.

20190918_092817.jpg

First of all, thank you for leaving your opinions so that now I can see where it comes from.

I have close to zero communication experience with @tarazkp, but from his high reputation(77) I assume that he has been around for a long time. All I can tell him is that I believe that it is inappropriate to "attack"(downvote) others if you yourself even are not sure what/why you are doing ("very limited understanding", if I use a direct quote.)


Now @whatsup 's reply.

Let's start with this part: "the token which has no real value"

So you are saying that SCT has no value. What is your reason?

SCT is the community token for steemcoinpan, one of the earliest steem-engine based communities. And it is also one of the most successful community so far, based on tag usage, user activities, market cap, transaction volume, etc.

Following your logic, I would say that palnet is also "the token has no real value". And I learned that you yourself use the palnet tag too. Let me ask you this question:

What is the difference between palnet and sct? is it only because you know people in palnet and don't know people in sct?


Second part: "having people bid with SCT token to receive large steem votes"

Okay. It seems that you do not like "steem engine bid bots" that accept steem engine token and bid. It is your preference and I understand that people may have different thoughts.

But have you applied the same criteria to other bid bots, including palnet bid bot (@minnowsupport), steemleo bot (@steem.leo), etc.?

  • As far as I know, no. You have not downvoted these bot users. Seems inconsistent.

  • Update: it seems that some users do not even know what are being discussed.

This is a screenshot from https://steembottracker.com/

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  • sct.voter accepts SCT (steemcoinpan token)

  • minnowsupport accepts PAL (palnet token)

The only difference is the symbol: structure is the same.

Oh, and one more difference - the amount of steem power that the project supporters delegated to the bot.


I would like to know how steem engine tribe people, including @aggroed and @yabapmatt, regarding this issue.

I believe that downvoting on postings merely based on the fact that they have used steem engine token bid bots will

  1. Discourage steem engine tribe community participation, which would reduce steemit community participation at the same time.

  2. Negative effect on steem prices as some users may feel disappointed of them receiving downvotes and choose not to power-up or even power down.


  • I seldom write in English as I mostly communicate with kr(Korean) users. But for this issue, I should use English.

  • 한국어 버전은 별도로 포스팅하겠습니다. Korean version of this article will be posted separately.

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Sort Order:  trending

It doesn't matter what the SCT token does, but once voting is coming out of the STEEM pool at these levels it will attract attention and these posts are hitting the trending sections and that will attract more attention - that is the idea of attracting votes at that level. Once in the attention, people are going to scrutinize it. What I have found is that the Korean community so far seems to have not been paying attention to what has been happening on Steem at all which is fine, but those on Steem have been.

The downvotes can be for disagreement of rewards or, disagreements of bidbot usage or disagreement of using a random token to buy large Steem votes or any number of reasons, but it is up to the community to decide where the Steem is directed. The tribes can do as they please with their own tokens, as it should be.

Does the SCT token hold value if there was no STEEM votes available? It seems that this might not be the case considering that they are being swapped out for Steem votes instead of being held as valuable tokens in themselves on their native platform.

What I am glad about is that there is more discussion around these things now as the other bidbots have been reduced to the point activity that has laid hidden can be seen. Thanks for taking the time to write in English too, it is appreciated.

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Does the SCT token hold value if there was no STEEM votes available?

This point you wrote actually is an excellent point of measure for any DAPPs or Tokens. I'm not addressing to SCT specific but to general. Thank you for the valuable comment.

I think in order to be a truly successful dapp or token, it needs to hold value on its own. Steemmonters and their cards is an excellent example.

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Steemmonters and their cards is an excellent example.

Yes it is as it stands on its own two feet and provides a use case that has utility without requiring a Steem vote for attraction.

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Superb!!

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What I have found is that the Korean community so far seems to have not been paying attention to what has been happening on Steem

I don't want to get too involved in this whole conversation, but I just wanted to comment that the converse of the above is also true - that the rest of the Steem community seems to not pay attention to what's going on in the Korean community, and I think that is also a big mistake. The Korean community seems to be one of the largest on the platform in terms of stake, and I suspect that without their support STEEM would be doing far worse than it already is. In fact, from what I understand Steemit, Inc specifically has really dropped the ball in Korea over the past year or so and I think that has contributed heavily to STEEMs huge price decline relative to other cryptocurrencies.

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Yes, but as I have found through @jayplayco, most of their interaction other than voting seems to be off Steem and in chat groups, leaving much of the content graveyards to collect votes other than be part of communities. When it comes to the voting of much of that stake, it is "tight-knit" to say the least with one of the largest accounts only voting on itself and alts until very recently after downvote pressure.

While everyone can do as they please with their own stake, once it enters onto a post with Steem on it, for seven days the final allocation is under negotiation. There is so much value in the Korean community that they could be onboarding locally with and increasing their own worth, yet as I have been told, the Korean community is shrinking. From what I understood (google translated), at least some didn't even know there was a hardfork that changed the economics.

Price decline is one thing of course, but I don't think keeping staked users who are not interested in developing even their own community growth is really the way to go for a long-term successful platform.

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leaving much of the content graveyards to collect votes other than be part of communities.

It depends how you see it, as I personally see also that the international community had been doing the same, as much of the communication had been done on Discord and not on Steem. As I am mentionend here, you may remember that a lot of the talk with me had also happened as DM on discord and not on the blockchain. It is simliar. If you go back in history, the tag KR had been the third active tag on the Steem blochchain for a long time. SCT is the second highest tag in the moment. ZZAN, which is also a Korean Tribe is the 11th tag, so you may see that the activity on the chain itself is for the portion of the KR community still very high, but just not visible (due to the UI of Steemit and language barrier). It is just that much of the direct communication have moved more into chat channels.

the Korean community is shrinking

The Korean community was never really big, compared to the whole Steem community. The biggest difference in the KR community is only that almost every single user is and was heavily invested into Steem. It comes from the beginning when users introduced Steem to other KR users and the main underlying advise was, if you want to grow on Steem, buy it. As an example, I have started with 700 Steem for 2K USD and proportionally increased that. Not the KR community only, but Korea itself as a country is still making about 25% of the daily worldwide volume of Steem, but it was normally on a level of 50%, especially when the daily volume increased (which means that the price increased) If you look into the data of coinmarketcap you will find the dependency on the KR market for the Steem price is at least at a level of 55-60%, partly 70% when we see an increase in the Steem price.

I think that needs to be corrected and more people outside of Korea should buy and stake Steem.

at least some didn't even know there was a hardfork that changed the economics.

Yes, that may be true, but it is one thing to know the technical implementation of an hardfork and another thing how the community will react on that. I have been informing the community about the effects of EIP and how the Steem community is moving on, but as normal you can't reach everybody.

I have now long term Steem users from the KR community contacting me directly that they are going to give up on Steem and moving on, or are shortly before that. That may sound not really dramatic, but these users have been investing in 6to 7 figure USD into the Steem economy. I know that a lot of people say that is great, so people can buy in cheap, but as every single coin economy, if you lose the whales the minnows will not be able to fill that place. We will have to find other whales replacing them.

I have personally moved my really little Steem from the exchange (compared to all the other KR users) and powered it up yesterday to show that I believe in the system, but it is only a drop on top of the hot stone. Even if the "honest voting" movement itself is legit, the way how it was and is done, without communicating directly with the people and understanding the consequences is unfortunate. The Korean community may be small from the number, but due to the specific way (due starting steem with investment) how they have approached Steem, the thinking has been formed differently. This kind of investments also had developed the growth of Steem, except that only a few recognized it. It comes due to the fact that there are language barriers (which is the same reason that the international community does not care or understand what happens within the KR community). Yabab knows about the effect the KR community has, as he is running Steemmonsters and know the numbers KR has invested into SM.

I am therefore happy that these kind of communications are happening and hope that we can form the community as we like without loosing all investors or at least having a plan how to find new ones.

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Your comments are like my posts :P

there is a lot of talk off chain of course, but there is also a great deal of talk on chain too and when it comes to the factors that affect the community, a lot happens quite transparently.

If you go back in history, the tag KR had been the third active tag on the Steem blochchain for a long time. SCT is the second highest tag in the moment. ZZAN, which is also a Korean Tribe is the 11th tag,

This is good, but active in what way? SCT and ZZAN are tokens, but how is the demand on that token if there are no Steem votes rewarding it?

I think that needs to be corrected and more people outside of Korea should buy and stake Steem.

I agree. But, if there is so much Steem in the KR comm, why isn't there more being done to use it to grow the KR comm?

Yes, that may be true, but it is one thing to know the technical implementation of an hardfork and another thing how the community will react on that. I have been informing the community about the effects of EIP and how the Steem community is moving on, but as normal you can't reach everybody.

Doesn't this prove the inactivity on Steem of the KR community? I would say that if the KR comm knew of the changes prior, they would have adjust similarly to everyone else. When it comes to how the community will react, being part of the discussions of the community would have been a pretty good indicator.

We will have to find other whales replacing them.

It just takes time. I believe that it isn't "stake at any cost" and abusive stake that doesn't help the platform grow harms more than it helps as price will eventually be an indicator of the community health, not whether a whale or ten buy it. Having investors who undermine the value proposition of Steem is counter-productive to getting to a healthy platform.

As Matt said about the ball being dropped, that may be true or not, I can't say. However, as a platform that is meant to be about ownership and responsibility, it is the responsibility of owners to do as they see fit and if the KR community however staked acts one way, the rest of the community will react accordingly. The beauty of the system and also the challenge is that this can happen without a common language.

The crux of the matter is though, once a post draws Steem from the common pool, it is up for negotiation from the entire community for 7 days. stake doesn't by rights to the reward, just rights to access the pool to place the potential rewards. I believe that at this tie at least, allocating that reward to those who are adding value to growing the platform has more value than giving that reward to people who only have stake. If that stake is growing the platform, they deserve to get rewarded too. THe thing with the EIP is that stake can still get 50% return on their value and still use the other 50% to support those who are supporting the growth of the platform and therefore, the worth of their stake.

I am therefore happy that these kind of communications are happening and hope that we can form the community as we like without loosing all investors or at least having a plan how to find new ones.

For sure. And while I know that this is uncomfortable for many, it is better to have this conversation now and then work toward a solution that improves the real value of Steem, then have it at the next random coin pump. And pump it was. Once the community value is the main focus, the price will raise in a stable fashion and all holders will win. But those invested users now are also entrepreneurs and behaving to harm one's own business is not a smart move for an investor.

I like talking with you :)

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This is good, but active in what way? SCT and ZZAN are tokens, but how is the demand on that token if there are no Steem votes rewarding it?

ZZAN does not have any voter, and for SCT, the voter is and was only able to distribute about 300 SCT per day.

SCT and ZZAN are both tokens based on nitrous and scotbot, which is kindof similar like a pre-version of SMT. You can find the nitrous under

The tribes are moving forward quite fast in terms of testing the field (which we will see when SMT is live) and also partly matching the functions and UI for their needs. As an example Steemcoinpan developed a Thumbsup function to be able tip the author personally even after the payout timing.

50% of the SCT donation are given to the author and the rest of 50% are partly burned and used from SCT for their developing pool.

The portion Steemcoinpan is depending on the bot is only minimal, as the value is created from the demand and supply. The current token price for one SCT token is about 2 Steem,

I suppose that you know how the Nitrous and Scotbot environment is working, but if not the crash course, Nitrous and Scotbot are somehow simulating functions of an SMT based on the Steem blockchain. If you upvote with staked SCT (or Zzan or any other SE token) you will get SCT upvoted. Steem upvotes are only additional, as it can't be avoided on the current system.

If you look at the current orderbook of SCT at Steemengine, you will see that it is a quite healthy orderbook.


Source

To understand the economics of this kind of tokens, we would need to talk about Dapps and POT (Proof of task) and how token economics and demands work, but I guess that would be too much for a comment. :)

But, if there is so much Steem in the KR comm, why isn't there more being done to use it to grow the KR comm?

It is, :) Steemhunt(Reviewhunt), Ntopaz, Tripsteem, Tasteem are Korean projects.
Steemcoinpan, Steemzzang, TripleA(Movie Review Site) are also Korean Tribe projects with the main goal to bind as much Steempower as possible and get the Steem on the exchange back into Steempower. (It is coming from an economic view of the Steem Blockchain)

I personally think for a community with under 300 active users it is quite a lot that is going on to get Steem moving forward.

being part of the discussions of the community would have been a pretty good indicator.

hmm, the discussion has gone one also on the Korean community. I am sure also on the Chinese, German and all other language communities. (Don't know either if that is a fact, but really assuming in this case) If I would request you to join the discussion (and yes I know that you are one of the few that are trying to do it) the language barrier can really be higher than you think. Most of the Korean users are interested what happens outside of the KR community but are depending on information that are brought into the community. And getting out information out of the KR community into the international community is also not easily possible, as the channels are not there. It was easier when more active users had been around, but nowadays (not only the Koreans but the whole active user numbers for Steem) decreased to a minimal level. I am trying to forward as much as possible, but there are limits, as for many, Steem is just a hobby which limits my personal time I can invest.

stake doesn't by rights to the reward, just rights to access the pool to place the potential rewards.

That is true and I can confirm that.

I like talking with you :)

I am enjoying it also. :)

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ZZAN does not have any voter, and for SCT, the voter is and was only able to distribute about 300 SCT per day.

But the votes are also in Steem and once in Steem, are open to the Steem mechanisms and scrutiny.

Steem upvotes are only additional, as it can't be avoided on the current system.

This is why most users with large stakes created additional accounts to handle the token voting. But the Steem portion still comes under steem rules.

I personally think for a community with under 300 active users it is quite a lot that is going on to get Steem moving forward.

How after so long and with so much stake there are only 300 users?

Out of curiosity, why not set up a curation project that supports some percentage of the KR community and some percentage of the international? There are already curation projects that range outside of English by hiring curators that curate other languages, why not have KR curators who speak English curate with some stake too? I think if the stake was spread more widely (remembering that the voter will stake take 50% anyway as well) it would go a long way to integrating the STEEM portion at least.

The tribes and SMT, communities etc should be independent of course and can do as they please, but once the Steem inflation pool comes into it, all Steem staked users get involved.

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I am on mobile, so will keep it short this time :)

  1. Users : we have about 3k active users on the blockchain. I guess 10% of the whole active user volume is a fair number based on the current situation.
  2. Curation projects
    SCT does have privately runned curation projects and also national and international delegated accounts for curators that are curating sct related postings and comments. ZZAN does has centralized curation projects that are curated from 20 choosen users based on time and result.

For Steem, most of the liquid Steem had been bind on Steem Engine as Steemp to run the tribes and a part had been used for the bot (at least for SCT) but I personally think that the tribes will find a new way and purpose for their owned Steem. (It could be delegated Steem to the current curators, etc. that is up to the tribes.)

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...work toward a solution that improves the real value of Steem,

Steem has zero "intrinsic value".

Steem only has utility if it can be exchanged (directly or indirectly) for fiat currency.

Don't fool yourself.

Once the community value is the main focus, the price will raise in a stable fashion and all holders will win.

Please define "community value".

Any rules (in service of "community value") should be minimal and logically coherent and enforcement should be polite and informative (please give fair warning).

You talk like you want the masses disillusioned with facebook and youtube to swarm onto steemit, but those people are leaving because of privacy concerns and freedom of speech concerns.

Steemit is explicitly transparent (almost no privacy), but at least it's a level playing-field.

Steemit is reasonable (for the most part) on freedom of speech, but I've been flagged (which felt like harassment) and I've seen several other new users flagged for re-posting their own original content from other blogs or forums. This leaves a bad first impression on people, and a bad first impression is often their last.

I thought it would be cool to earn a few (steem) pennies for my thoughts, which I've already been posting for free for a while now.

But after seeing some of my posts getting 20+ upvotes and still showing $0.00, it really motivated me to figure out how this really works.

Luckily, I crossed paths with a couple of nice people who appreciated my contributions (efforts) and even delegated some steem to support/encourage me.

Honestly, that's the only reason I'm still here.

If you want steemit to grow, you need to incentivize these people who act as ambassadors to NEW USERS.

I came to steemit because I thought it was a (democratic) social-platform/dtube/3speak where I could earn a few pennies for my thoughts.

What I realize now is that it's a game run by oligarchs (plutocracy).

But at least it's a (mostly) transparent game.

The oligarchs reward and smite on mere whim and insure the votes of their "lessers" are meaningless.

But those invested users now are also entrepreneurs and behaving to harm one's own business is not a smart move for an investor.

If new users believe that their only chance to get a steady modest income from steemit is to "perform for the established rep-whales" and or post photos of their extravagant vacations, then CREATIVE people who want to do their own thing will LEAVE, and you will be drowned in sycophants.

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This is true, I am sad to say that I am sobering to the reality that Steem was designed poorly for a social application. Here, hierarchy is very clear, the more SP you have the more followers and engagement you will have.

I just don't believe that is going to work. People want equality in social conversations and to be able to speak freely without potentially huge consequences like auto-flagging.

Also, many of these pro-flagging people on Steem are really ignoring how much it offends people. They can tell you how it shouldn't offend you, and rationalize all they want about it, but human nature is not going to change for their ideals. Humans really dislike it.

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I agree. If you don't want to hear from someone or look at their post, just MUTE them. There's no reason to trash their payouts and rep simply because you have a difference of OPINION.

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It seems that the fact that sct brought more than 1 million steems to power up and hence supported steem prices is consistently ignored.

But your second point deserves more attention. I believe that SCT is much better than steem (and market prices so far confirms it) and it may do much better on other blockchain, but for now it is using steem blockchain network so not independent.

Hello,

Okay, I worded that poorly... Palnet and yes, the SCT may hold value at some point. But creating a bot that gives out large Steem votes when you pay with another token devalues Steem in my opinion.

You make many great points. Yes, I do apply the same logic to the other bidbots that give out LARGE Steem votes. I am unconcerned about tiny votes.

Focusing more on SteemMonsters and SCT which are the only ones that I have noticed giving out noticeably large votes.

I'd be happy to discuss if you think I am misunderstanding something.

Thanks for the English post for discussion.

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Thank you very much for your reply. I hope we can use this opportunity to enhance mutual understanding of the issue.

Now I understand that you feel uncomfortable that these votes are "large".

As far as I know, examples of steemmonsters and SCT- they are large as more users (in terms of steem powers) support the project.

I thought that if the project may gather more steem power to support it, it is better both for steem and the project. But I may be wrong.

So what is your suggestion of solving this issue? For example, who would, and how we can decide which amount is "large"?

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A $27 dollar upvote in exchange for some SCT tokens to me does seem large on one post that ends up on trending and although the translation tool are rough, didn't really appear to be anything special.

Regarding solving it, there is no hostility involved and in comparison my vote is tiny. Your group can just ignore them since the vote is likely still profitable, although I do wish your group would consider how that impacts Steem and how it feels to other content creators.

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Hm, so how much would be okay? $20? $10? And who will make the decision and would people agree on that?

Alternative of converting SCT token to cash, instead of using it for voting is exchange sct to steem and sell it. Since voting makes 50% of reward staked, I believe that it is better for steem as well.

Your downvote alone might not be critical in terms of dollar values, but the more important point is that you are one of the opinion leaders and lots of users rely on your opinion, as far as I know.

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My opinion is that it brings value to the SCT token, via Steem. It's hard to imagine how that helps anyone but SCT users. I don't have any opinion on the value of SCT nor do I know what it does for Steem. So, I have no intent to be negative about the token.

Not sure that there is a place where we need agreement. I think it devalues Steem to give out that large of a vote in exchange for SCT tokens.

Regarding the decision each person will use their DVs as they wish hence no agreement is necessary nor is there one person who makes the decision.

I don't want to see trending filled with posts that hold little value except for a purchased vote. I think that currently is the mood/opinion of many within the community.

Had the bidbots owners been better actors in who could buy a vote and for what purpose, I don't think the response would be as harsh.

I'm not sure you and I need to come to agreement on this, as I think it is unlikely I will create a huge downvote train on your community.

I appreciate the discussion by the way, as I think many of us are still experimenting with what adds value and what does not.

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Okay. So what you are saying is that

"I do not want to see postings on trending that I think not really good"

"I think certain amounts are too much, but I do not have a specific rule"

I agree that you may act as you want. But that also means that you should be okay with you getting downvotes, for example from sct.voter, for whatever reason, including "I think your post has too much reward."

Did I understand correctly?

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곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.032을 보팅해서 $0.008을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6530번 $74.522을 보팅해서 $84.847을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

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Sure if you want to downvote my content for any reason that is your right as a stake holder.

My issue is that the vote is purchased with SCT tokens.

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Thank you for the reply. I don't think I am going to downvote (and my sp is not big anyway) - just wanted to know your thoughts on the issue.

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De-centralized, non-goverened: Everybody acts how they want, thus creating consensus.
It only starts to be distorted by greed (=buying huge votes).
Everybody has their own opinion about how much is too much; if everybody voices them > consensus!
And no body has a problem with receiving downvotes; they are an important and honest tool. btw. honest: You can judge your own post, and think about what's its value. If you earn less rewards, go and buy a vote. Me, I've sen by far more valuable posts paying out about 1STU...

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I think it devalues Steem to give out that large of a vote in exchange for SCT tokens.

Based on what?

Isn't steem supposed to be a medium of exchange?

Isn't a vote essentially just a payment or donation?

If people want votes, it means they value steem. The more people who want steem, the greater the demand for steem and the greater the value becomes.

Paying for a vote is a steem purchase.

Don't you want people to buy steem?

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곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.004을 보팅해서 $0.036을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6529번 $74.490을 보팅해서 $84.839을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

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!dramatoken

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I hope this leads to a constructive argument.

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곰돌이가 @jaydih님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.006을 보팅해서 $0.034을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6528번 $74.486을 보팅해서 $84.803을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

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Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

I understand why they have the downvoting system and agree it needs to exist.

But I believe people should be getting taught or informed what they have done before just receiving a downvote!

In instances like this, I don't understand why the downvoters go after the people learning the ropes instead of taking on the bot owners, if enough people felt as strongly as they did, surely the bot owners would listen?

The downvoters are saying their actions are to improve steem, and I understand they're trying to protect the reward pool. But, I believe their current actions will actually do more damage to the number of users on steem, surely there is a better way... That's just my opinion, time will tell.

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Thank you for the opinion. I completely agree that they should talk to bot operators first.

My guess is that these bots are usually owned/operated by "powerful" guys so downvoters do not want to face them.

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It was impossible to really talk to the bot owners; and you can't downvote them as long as they only sell votes but don't post. Besides that, they are exactly the greedy people that are hard to talk to.

Can they not warn you prior the downvote about what you need to avoid? Did they at least try to reach SCT and tell them about their new policy? Is this how New Steem deal with abuses, surprise attacks small accounts and communities and want them to abandon something they have invested their money, time and effort in? Is downvote the only cure to abuses? Is this not borderlining into bullying and power tripping? I probably missed a lot of communications or there are no proper communications.

Can they not do better than this?

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I used bidbots because that was a way for me to invest in Steem and that was how I grew my account without any whale support or attention. I am not saying bidbots are not abusive, but not everyone abused Steemit via bidbots. As far as I am concerned I only withdrew significant amount of SBD/Steem once, back when I was starting 30 SBD when it was worth 7 USD each. Just to prove that Steemit was not scam. I bidbot not to game the system and make me earn, I bidbot to grow my account and help make my community of plankton that less people cared. Then lately, I have just been surprised with downvotes. I stopped sending bids because I actually understand how they want to fix the bidbot abuse and I appreciate that. But you know, tagging you as an abuser, downvoting you suddenly without any warning coming from an authority... I guess that is not what I expected.

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Removing a total of $2 is not saying it is abuse. It is only stating that in one opinion it is over valued.

I've used bots too. Doesn't mean a mildly interesting post should be on trending with a a $27 purchased blind vote. :)

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I rarely make a comment because it's most often misunderstood, based on some past experience and the many things I see around. But for this issue, I really think more communications must be made than have this no warning flag spree. I appreciate what you guys do for Steemit, I do. But not everyone will take those flags like I do and I cannot blame them. No benefit of the doubt given. No warning. You have a good goal. But to those people who do not know what you are fighting for, worst that they can conclude is that these people are just happy to flag. Many ways to communicate a warning, leave a comment, make a post and tag suspects, this is what I suggest. I don't know much about these new movements, do people earn when they flag?

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The way it works is you each of us has stake to vote with.

A post is open for 7 days. People can upvote, ignore or downvote with their stake.

No explanation is required. The post I downvoted was worth about $60 when I downvoted it. I left a polite explanation.

My downvote with the combination of the 2 accounts equal less than $2 in fact, now that I think about it, I didn't even hit it with the larger account. I only hit with like .30 cents. :) So, this is a pretty silly over reaction.

I didn't call it abuse and I wasn't rude. I explained why I think it is over-valued. I don't hate the bidbots and I have nothing personal against the OP or the person I downvoted.

I also do not mind you asking how it works, and no one earns for downvoting, it can return rewards to the entire pool.

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That was actually nice of you. I have not seen the said thread but knowing you left a reason made it better than the scenario I have in mind. But if I had that drive to correct someone here then I would spare the downvote first and make sure they know what's up because who knows they know nothing. In an analogy, for example, if I was out there in a public place and someone offended me, I would actually tell them I am offended by what they did. In my perception which is probably not same as theirs, I am offended. So, I would probably get to hear the person why they did something that got me offended. I would not slap them and tell them that was for being offensive and expect them to change and we both know peace.

I'd rather have Steemit corrected from abuses than be destroyed by it, no doubt about it but is this the better or best way to get there? Instant flags? Perma flags?

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Those are all I have to say. I am glad there is an effort to make Steemit better and some people are proactive about it. It's just my 2 cents and probably my last effort on the flagging abuse issue. I hope I made a tiny point. Thanks for the attention.

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@
mermaidvampire, would you also expect to have a comment why somebody upvoted your post?

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Why would I explain every downvote and not every upvote? Have you ever noticed how no one ever says...

So and so upvoted my post and didn't even tell me why. :) Downvotes are a normal part of the system and in order for curation to work we need to normalize them.

If we can not downvote, we will have to stop doing author rewards entirely, some are already for this, there is just too much abuse and shit posting for no other reason than to get rewards.

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There is this account camillesteemer that downvotes random people for no reason and it has pissed people off. The SP and downvote of course is 0 but it puzzles you when you get that downvote of him or her. That's probably the kind of culture we are heading for and I guess I will rest my case here and just deal with it, you say.

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So it is mildly interesting to you so you downvote.

May I assume that you would not complain when you get downvote for that reason?

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You can assume I don't complain when I get upvotes or downvotes.

They work the same way. Posts are open for 7 days, people can upvote or downvote for any reason during that time.

I didn't downvote the post for how interesting it was or wasn't it is over rewarded out of the Steem rewards and I find the idea the vote was paid for with SCT devalues Steem. It's just an opinion expressed with my dv.

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Thank you for your opinion. I don't really know what new steem movement is, but hope such downvotes are not one of the movement.

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Well, it's a good idea in theory and hopefully soon in practice. New Steem is something I like and I want to happen because that actually is a sign that Steemit Inc still cares to make Steemit better. I can only share 1 very nice material to you, just try to get to the recent posts of exyle, there is one recent post where he makes a comparison of the new steem and old steem and why new steem is better. I like it, it convinced me about the new steem and I know exyle to be straightforward and clear about his ideas, opinions and thoughts. Very nice read.

I mean, I obviously like and appreciate new steem but this practice of "join us downvote and surprise small users with flags" is something dreadful in my opinion because anyone can and should warn people or at least tell them what's new. I mean it's possible to do that first, why ain't anyone doing that?

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Sorry for my weak English.

I'm strongly agree with you on this.

i don't think users are doing any grave mistake intentionally.
we (plankton/minnows) were not buying votes just to earn some bucks.
we also wish to get a good reputation, to stake a good steem power out of the investment.

we should at least get a warning before getting these big downvotes.

if a whale comes to my post saying "I'll downvote your post if you buy votes again" instead of downvoting then I'd stop buying votes for sure and I'd appreciate that warning message.

we certainly won't buy these kind of upvotes if we had lots of steem power like these whales.

I also got a nice downvote/flag from @trafalgar (sorry for the mention).

yeah i stopped buying votes from steemmonsters after that downvote but I'd also done the same if i could get a warning first.

curators are already getting 50% of post payout and after getting a downvote of around 5$ on where the big vote is not even double of that... that's something that can discourage peoples (small peoples like us).

many users are thinking about leaving the platform for these downvotes.
is this what we want?
really?

i also thought of stop creating content after the downvote.
then i thought "i might deserve that... maybe they're doing the right thing, maybe it will bring value to steem".

so to dear whales like @whatsup, @trafalgar ...

i have a small request as a tiny member of steemit.

please just leave a message at first and give users a second chance.

thanks.

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we should at least get a warning before getting these big downvotes.

I agree 100%.

You are right . Most of the tribes are doing this using these methods. Trading tokens for steem upvotes. If they are gonna flag SCT then they need to flag every other tribe and we may see how that goes. One might not be as forthcoming. You ask the question what is too much? Good question. It seems too much is getting your post trending. Dont get it to trending and you have no downvotes. Simples. None of these guys actually read the posts especially if they are in a different language unless of course they trend . If a rich man is making a bucket load , they are not heading down to the taxman showing off their new yacht!! They keep driving the shoddy old Volvo lambasting the rich smiling in the background. The good thing is that the blockchain is open and transparent and you can see exactly what bots your accusers have used since they have been on this platform. It may make interesting reading.

Posted using Partiko Android

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Thank you for your opinion. And your advice was helpful - blockchain records do show lots of interesting history.

Don't buy and sell votes, it undermines honest voting.

Content creators are competing for the attention of stakeholders in a level playing field. Paying for votes completely defeats the process of rewarding and discovering content based on the voters subjective appraisal which is required for our platform to succeed.

I am even more against schemes that require buyers to dump Steem to purchase votes using an altcoin as it has all the above harmful effects while putting downward price pressure on Steem directly. My downvotes will be very focused on this set of behaviors.

My recommendation is if you believe these alts are pricing in unchallenged vote buying into their value, then that's likely not going to continue for long and your best bet is to sell them before others do, including the creators of these alts themselves.

I am not the only large stakeholder against these initiatives.

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First of all, I believe we have not "met". And I find it uncomfortable that someone, stranger to me, directly "orders" me what to and what not to do.

And let me clarify your misunderstanding regarding steem engine tokens.

Many steem engine tribes, especially SCT, has incentived users to BUY lots steem which supported steem prices. @aggroed will confirm that SCT alone has gathered more than a million steem. Or I guess one may check historic inflow of steem from exchanges (say, upbit) that goes to SCT or other token purchases using the blockchain record.

I have not used non-steem engine based bidbots before, so I have limited knowledge in this matter. But as far as I know, these bidbots were mainly supported or run by large stakeholders. Not sure how these large stakeholders think, b/c I am not one of them.

My recommendation is that if you feel uncomfortable or go against these bots, you should talk to the owners/operators of bots first.

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They're not being downvoted because of whatever alleged good they're doing.

They're being downvoted because of vote selling. As I explained, it completely undermines the ability for us to function as a fair content rewards and discovery platform, which is our central value proposition.

Of course people can continue to use these services and many will continue to use our free downvotes to make abusive behavior as unprofitable as possible, which is what they're intended for.

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You seem to be advocating school-yard-bully economics.

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곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.011을 보팅해서 $0.029을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6531번 $74.533을 보팅해서 $84.876을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~

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This is a very similar method whales on Whaleshares used that brought down the price of WLS significantly.
Freedomexists being a good example.

What would happen is that you would sell your WLS for BTS, then use BTS to buy the "Whaletoken" on the market. You would send the whaletoken to the whale and he would upvote you for a higher amount of WLS then you spent.
This created massive downward pressure on the price of WLS and one of the reasons Whaleshares is pretty much dead.
SCT wont have such an effect but you can see what stuff like this does.

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For now SCT and Steemmonsters are operating almost entirely on vote selling through alt coins and a few self/affiliate votes. Maybe there are a few more.

They've been getting away with a lot as most of the attention was focused on conventional bots since the EIP, but I've been targeting them lately as have others

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Its easier to hide since the sale isnt written on chain.
Same as with WLS.

Also could you look at the comment i pinged you in an hour ago. Want to see what you think.

Posted using Partiko Android

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They're still written on chain, but through custom json

But your point stands that they don't have to be written on chain

I don't think it's trivially easy to create a vote selling service with very far reach yet have the voting accounts themselves be difficult to detect. Although it may be pretty easy to hide payments that track individual posts. So you can likely scrutinized accounts of known vote sellers for a while at least and downvote their votes on low quality content.

Ultimately, we'll have to move to a culture where people need to feel comfortable downvoting and getting downvoted due to reward disagreement. It'll never feel great getting downvoted, but there doesn't need to be drama each time.

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That will never happen. You are not going to magically change the way humans react to downvotes/dislikes. When rewards are involved it is even less possible.

It is an action that people will continue to find insulting and aggressive. It will simply never take place that everyone will just be fine with downvotes, not unless Steem stops receiving new users and maintains only a static number of accustomed voters.

I think sct is by far the most successful and most valuable Scot tribe.


You're upping the drama to new levels! Have a DRAMA.

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

I think the Witnesses who made Downvoting mana on HF21 and HF22 should think again.

A flag is only an "attack" if you view it as one or if it was malicious. It is more often a disagreement. I don't think you were a victim here.

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I have asked him about the reason he stated for downvoting, he admitted that his reasnoning was not well articulated.

I am more interested in the reason of downvoting. As you say, if one disagrees one may state opinion and/or downvote. All I pointed out was that his reasoning was wrong and inconsistent with his other behavior.

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Actually I said my explanation wasn't well stated. The part I was referencing was "No Value" regarding the SCT token.

감사 감사
잘 해결되길 바랍니다.
요즘 저도 spt 100% 매일 다운보팅 먹는중입니다.
그냥 무시합니다. ㅋ

fenrir78님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.

오늘도 즐몬하세요~

jcar토큰 9월 구독 보팅입니다.
좋은 하루 보내세요. ^^

  ·  지난달

ukk님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(50 SCT)을 하였습니다.

happyberrysboy님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.

zzings님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(100 SCT)을 하였습니다.

donekim님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(77 SCT)을 하였습니다.

  ·  지난달

To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.

Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.

Bid botting regardless of the method on the new Steem is going to be frowned upon unfortunately!

If you are going to do it, know that you’re going to attract the attention of stakeholders who disagree with it and while you have every right to bid bot your posts for more rewards and exposure so do they have a right to disagree with it and downvote it

Bit botting isn’t inherently a bad thing but reward farming is what these stakeholders are against

Yes they are a service available and people can use them as they please. But Let me ask you this, how often do you find other people’s posts you enjoy and bid bot them up to reward them? I’ve done it in the past, there are other use cases for it besides lining your own pockets

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I have not used any non-steem engine bit bots before so I cannot answer the postings used these bots.

But for the SCT bot, I have enjoyed posting that used sct.voters.

Thank you for your opinion.

lovelyyeon.sct님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.

Thx for explaining. I wasnt sure what SCT did so i did not downvote those posts. But i will have to do it now.

Minnowsupport, as far as i know doesnt need to be payed for. It simply provides support to anyone.

SCT from what you said here is basically vote selling, even though it seems you avoided saying that "Sct votes are purchased votes".

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It seems that you really do not know what this is.

20190918_193221.jpg

Sct.voter takes SCT (steemcoinpan token)

Minnowsupport takes PAL (palnet token)

They are exactly the same, except the symbol.

Have no idea why you assume that minnowsupport does not need to be payed for.


Feel free to downvote, but apply the same rule for palnet then.

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Doesnt matter really. I remember minnowsupport being free to use.
If they take pal tokens that are purchasable on the market then ill flag them as well.

Posted using Partiko Android

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They discontinued the free Discord pal voting bot.. More likely to be abused they said ( as I don't see the difference why you would only downvote pal bot if it was a paid-for bot.. I thought the point about hating on vote bots was because they can vote on crap and give it unfair promotion and rewards? Free bots can do that too..)

Not that I agree at all with this 'movement' though - posts should be (down)voted based on their content and a disagreement with the rewards that content is earning, not just because it got a bot vote.

Your blindly downvoting on content, a bot blindly votes on content .. how are these different? Rescuing some rewards and putting them back in the reward pool? By doing the same thing (blind voting) that you detest?

I'd just feel so much better if you actually read the content before judging, and then ask yourself "would I vote on this?" and if so then I don't think buying a vote from a bot should be so wrong.

If however you wouldn't vote on the content and it was bid on by a bot, that deserves a downvote no doubt as there's nothing to justify the bot's vote.

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They discontinued the free Discord pal voting bot.. More likely to be abused they said

No. The discord bot was a community supporting bot. It voted 1 time per day in small percentages. The level of abuse is beyond miniscule.
Them moving it into a pay for vote bot serves only to enrich the bot owner, it was one of the shittier things to do. I dont know exactly how it works, i want to emphasize that, but if you simply pay for the vote then its easy to say that Aggroed has turned into a simple money grabbing bot owner and i hope the whales stomp his ass sooner rather then later.

I thought the point about hating on vote bots was because they can vote on crap and give it unfair promotion and rewards?

Its more complex then that. Theres stake concentration thats an issue, theres the gravity of votes to consider, theres proof of brain.
Minnowsupport was a community support, basic income type of bot with low coffer filling potential for the owner and its use effect on the payout was extremely low. You basically used it if you just started up so your payout isnt 0.

not just because it got a bot vote.

There are numerous things tied into what a bot vote does and what it means for the platform. I cant explain it all to right now. It creates dumb inflation. It creates a negative picture of steem. It demotivates creators from creating. Theres so many negative things tied into bots that i would have to write an essay to explain it all.
Read my posts on bots if you want to know more.

Your blindly downvoting on content, a bot blindly votes on content .. how are these different?

I havent downvoted a single time blindly. More times then not i give an explanation.
It is "Just because its botvoted" because bot use does all those things i mentioned above and many more.

and if so then I don't think buying a vote from a bot should be so wrong.

It still remains absolutely wrong. Did the community make the call that they want to see your post trend?
It breaks even the basic definition of what "trending" means.
No, you decided that this should be seen, you promoted the post almost for free and you took spots from someone else that would be just a bit higher up the trending page or tag page organically if you didnt take his spot, just because you could pay more. You destroyed proof of brain and you completely wrecked the adspace value of the trending page. .
Its egotistical, narcissistic, selfish, hurts the image of the platform and drains the reward pool.

Hope its a bit clearer now.

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I know my words may have seem directed to you, and I was replying to you, but I was speaking in assumptions more than "you did this!" just to be clear.

Sorry, I am bad for that, speaking in the general context but making it sound like I'm getting personal.

Did the community make the call that they want to see your post trend?

Isn't it like seeing an advertisement, and how is promoted any different though? Sure, burning is beneficial to the community but just because you've burned SBD/whatever means I need to like your shitpost and put up with it being injected into my feed as 'promoted'??

I'm not really sure when something would qualify for trending because I use SteemPeak so do not even see the normal trending section.. but I could imagine that things make it to trending organically that majority of the community wouldn't agree with either.
I used to use bots without a thought, on all my posts, prior to HF - because they were profitable.. but I'm not posting shit meme posts either, and then I was sending the bare minimum bid accepted.

I don't think my 1 STEEM bid is going to shake things up too much, and if my post already had 200+ upvotes and making over 10 STU, I might decide to use a bot to help push it father up the reward curve, like I did recently with a post that received some attention by the right people and one vote sent it over 35 STU.. so at that point I paid booster 1 STEEM to help push it just a little more up the reward curve. Booster's vote was like 10th down my list of voters.. generally I don't use bots on brand new posts either because I want to get a sense of the impression first.
Rarely is the bot's vote ever the largest vote, and that's not my point in using it anyways.


Anything on steem-engine is marketable but for example, HLPE tokens are generally won from contests that @helpie hosts, and @helpiecake curators earn them as well each month for being active.. Their only use case is to buy upvotes from @helpie bot, at a max of 30 for a 30% vote.. Since their only use is upvotes, none have really gone up on the sell market yet..
How do you feel about that use case?

Matter of fact, how do you feel about SBI?

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have more to say and ask but it was hard enough crafting the words for this reply, don't want to come across argumentative - I'm honestly curious and trying to debate here.. Learn, I'm still new.

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There are things i do not know. You can pull up some examples and all i can talk about is the stuff im familiar with.
I used to be in Helpie for a year and i havent followed what they do and how they do it after that.
I often talk to Eon so i might ask him whats happening with their bot.

Its all case to case basis and ive actually had a discussion about something similar to SBI.
You could parallel sbi (if they didnt change) to what minnowbooster used to be. Community supporting bot.
The size of votes matter because visibility matters.

Id say its more important to stop a abusive whale that bots for 200$ then hundreds of those that abuse for 0.05 cents.

Its all case to case. Ill downvote someone that bots for 100$ much sooner then someone that bots for 5$.

Its really simple logic.

Whats worse?
Someone throwing a pebble at you or a 5kg rock.

Posted using Partiko Android

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See I don't have a problem with that, if the bots attract your attention to the posts then fine if you're reading them and making your own judgement..

First impression I had though was that you were either on the auto-downvote trail I had mentioned in my last reply, or simple downvoting any and all content voted up by a bot regardless of the content.

Your attitude seems very strict and very much against bid-bots, and I'm not saying that here as a bad thing, just that it was easy to also paint a picture of you marching around with a pitchfork in the air, lighting all botted posts on fire and some innocent ones getting caught in some cross-fire. Honestly there is a clique like that forming on here already!

So I'm super glad that I was brave enough to stop and question/'debate' with you, because now I have a totally different impression of you. Thank you.

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You saying it demotivates creators from creating.. but see before this downvote movement thing, I already had a fear of abusing bots and getting downvotes. I was under the impression that as long as you weren't obviously upbidding ALL your posts, posting 5 times a day bidbotting them all - and worst of all posting just memes or posts with a few sentences in them..

I don't even self-vote, but I want to use as much potential for earning as I can - and since shittier posts are being bid-botted up to whale votes from the bot, I feel like I at least need the bots minimum vote to compete and again, use up my earning potential.

Maybe my posts aren't interesting to some but I spend time writing, editing, and then networking within my communities and followers for my posts to get support. I work hard trying to grow here, I feel a bot vote here and there is justified on my work.

It's like, if they aren't entirely outlawed, then anyone who doesn't use a bot is giving themselves a disadvantage against those who are using them.. know what I mean.

My content would be my content here or any other platform. Only twice have I posted twice in a day and I think the most active posts I had at once was 10 for a day, I struggle to even keep 5 active posts up When I post it's to produce my best work, not just to use on a bid-bot.. But I dunno this is just my story but that's what I mean by the poison that blindly downvoting can do.. everyone has their reasons and not ALL users of bots are using them in a way that should be seen as abusive in my opinion...

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☺ Kharma, i know what youre doing and its ok. I did the same thing. Some soft manipulation to draw attention. Hehe.
Just keep up your work and try your best. Buy some steem to increase your influence. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders.
I see traf noticed you as well.

The bidbot thing. Stay away from it. You dont need the stigma. Gl. 😉

Posted using Partiko Android

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[Spoiler: there is a part of this reply where I say
And as you see, I love to talk/type/write LOL.. Sorry.. 🙄 so sorry in advance for rambling but, I only ramble to those I'm interested in speaking to .. soo buckle up and sip some tea?!]

Do you consider SBI a form of vote buying/bot voting? Personally, I love SBI and IMO @steembasicincome is the top project steemians should invest their STEEM in, next to Splinterlands cards (and again this is just my opinion)((I'm neglecting to mention powering up because that's already a given..))

How do you feel about auto-upvoting - in the context of being on people's auto-vote rules, and also the context of being someone who follows curation trails with an auto-vote or puts an author on auto-vote??

I'm genuinely curious !


Thank you btw, your reply was completely unexpected to be honest, I thought you were totally going to ream me out & put me on your downvote watch list when I threw myself under the bus admitting to using bots and not being sorry about it LOL -

So bare with me as I do some shameless promo?
One of my posts got a treat of 100% vote out of nowhere from KevinWong one day too .. that was my first whale vote and it felt great! I think he attracted some other decent voters to the post too!

Oh and @qurator curated me the other day and I was featured in @ocd's daily curation post, and that attracted some good votes too.

Stupidy though for one of those posts I decided to test out how @tipu was post-HF - as it was one of the bots I always used on a new post before the HF.

So tipu voted and then came along someone who was trailing tipu's upvotes - blindly downvoting a few bot trails..
hence my angst towards auto-downvoting.

The content this person tarnished with their downvote ( a broken heart icon on steempeak, very fitting ) was 'great' according to the community commenting on it, was my top earning post organically at this point, and maybe thanks to a followers re-steem the post attracted the attention of a whale vote for the first time..

but then this random person comes to downvote it and although it didn't do much damage, it offended me and I was very upset that someone was using downvotes so irresponsibly! Odd thing is this downvoter used to be a bid-bot?! Anyways, I requested in a comment to them that I be put on a whitelist, pled my case, got no reply and no idea if they listened however they haven't downvoted me again, I'm kinda tempted to use tipu again though just to see what happens in regards to them.. I'm just a twit/troll like that though LOL

I was stupidly proud of myself though when my posts started getting curated by the top curation communities.. but I can't let it get to my head because I know that I won't appease majority of the masses and might not have the potential to be influential here.. these days people are all TL;DR! on the internet - even in places where you're expected to read, people don't want to read..

And as you see, I love to talk/type/write LOL.. Sorry.. 🙄 Almost done I promise.. (Trust me, I already spend a lot of time editing just to cut out content and reword things to make them shorter.. imagine how much I originally had :o )

I still don't think my content is good enough though, and that kind of demotivates me a smidgen some days..

I have tons of drafts saved on SteemPeak because I am too shy/embarrassed to finish them up because I feel like I can't write interesting enough things and that bothers me because I love to write and share my #unpopularopinions with the world.. I'm trying to improve with each post though!

It's too bad I couldn't earn like my whale posts did, consistently - maybe one day, but for now my goal is just to grow every week; in follower count, SP amount and every week I take part in an Engagement League so my short-term goal there is to break into the top 10 and my end game goal would be to de-throne the 4 time champion @tattoodjay one day!! 🙏

I promise if you reply again I won't punish you with a blog post reply again

Thank you for your continued support towards JJM. For each 1000 JJM you are holding, you can get an additional 1% of upvote. 10,000JJM would give you a 11% daily voting from the 700K SP virus707 account.

@givememonsters is a DEC based bid-bot ;)

Some people even auto-downvote any post upvoted by any type of bid-bot, there is an auto-downvote site made just for that - following someone's upvote trail in order to downvote everything in their trail!

Blind downvoting without looking at a post's content is toxic and just as bad as they say these bid-bots are.

And downvoting just because they dislike the use of bots should be bias discrimination..

Posts should be (down)voted on their content solely and a disagreement with the rewards that content is earning. Period.

realmankwon님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.

View or trade BEER at steem-engine.



Hey @glory7, here is a bit BEER for you. Enjoy it!

Hi @glory7!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 4.545 which ranks you at #2038 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 108 contributions, your post is ranked at #10.

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • Some people are already following you, keep going!
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Try to work on user engagement: the more people that interact with you via the comments, the higher your UA score!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

좋은 방향으로 풀아갈 수 있기를 바랍니다..

Everyone is being far too fucking civilised. It s a tokenised bid-bot. You know it, we know it. Man up and take the heat in the kitchen. FFS