Decentralized Standards Of Behavior | Ranty STEEM Freewrite

22일 전

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Lot's of people are crying out for centralized standards of behavior on STEEM. When they do, they invoke the paradigm that they are used to, web 2.0 social media.

NEWSFLASH

This is web 3.0! My stake in STEEM Power entitles me to influence the standard to whatever I want it to be. To encourage behavior I upvote, to discourage it, I downvote. My standards might be completely different than yours, and sometimes we may agree. I'm totally cool with that. I can totally respect that you would upvote something I would downvote, or the inverse of that. What matters at the end is the ratio of who thought it was up-worthy, versus who thought it was down-worthy.


Identity-based Standards?

People tell me, don't downvote that guy, he's an A, or don't upvote that gal, she's a B. Screw that, everyone gets held to the same standard. I'm not interested in trying to track what thing everybody is, and I'm sure as hell not going to adjust my personal standards based upon a demographic. If that's your thing, be my guest. Get on the other side of my vote. That's why we vote.



The call for centralized standards enforcement

Recently an SPS proposal was floated by the so-called South Korean community to enforce more control of curators in the area of downvoting. Refer to the link below.

https://steempeak.com/steemdao/@proxy.token/sps-proposal-for-the-agreement-of-the-down-voting-standards

They want to influence what you can do with YOUR STAKE. Specifically, they want to enforce a centralized standard on the application of downvotes. They want to make this the thing we are trying to escape.

Forget for a minute how insane the logistics of attempting this would be. Why would they want to do this? In my opinion, this community bought millions of steem prior to HF21/22 and thought up all kinds of creative ways to game the reward pool. The problem is, this gaming results in complete shitposts getting $20+ upvotes.

This proposal has a whole who's who list of these gamers (thanks for that by the way). Nothing would make them happier than their delegation bots and complex self-voting systems being able to operate unabated.

NO, there will never be official standards, because I set the standard, we all set the standard. It's called decentralized governance.

Don't fall for it!

Don't let them fool you, this whole 'downvotes are violence' narrative is complete bullshit. The people crying the loudest about downvotes, are the ones who were milking the reward pool the hardest for the least amount of work prior to the HF. Don't believe me, find someone up in arms about downvotes and take a stroll through their history. It's all on the blockchain. More often than not they had some method of maximizing the extraction of rewards.

All the small accounts now actually getting curated that were previously ignored, they aren't complaining about downvotes. Don't fall for the narrative. I implore you, check out the backstory of anyone trying to push it on you.

If you turn this joint into whaleshares, C-YA

In any case, if these people get their way and find a way to enforce 'curation' of curator's downvotes, 13 weeks won't be fast enough. Enjoy the ride down.

In sum:

IT'S MY STAKE, IT'S MY VOTE!

IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THAT AND CRAVE A NANNY PLATFORM...

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It should be an entirely personal choice what you downvote. I do it based on the behaviour of the 'abuser' and not on who they are. Persistent spammers and vote buyers know exactly what they are doing and must know it is not acceptable. All these cries of 'censorship', 'violence', 'nazis!' are a distraction. There is a finite pool of rewards and I will do what I can to make more of it go to people who earn it. I can only change rewards by a few cents, but hundreds of us doing that makes a difference. It may mean I get downvoted myself in retaliation, but I am prepared to pay that price.

I have found @steemflagrewards to be a great and dedicated community who want Steem to be better. I will not always agree with the opinions of some of them, but I do not have to vote the same way as them. I do get some SFR tokens for my efforts, but lately I am using those to help others.

Believe in better and be a free agent.

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Thanks, I agree. Often my criteria doesn't match that of others, though we may arrive at the same conclusion to downvote.

At first, when the hardfork was announced, a lot of small accounts were worried that they might lose the small rewards that they were getting because of the new reward curve, and they were pretty upset about it. There was also fear that those who flag just to be jerks or because they disagree with your opinion would get worse, but that didn't really happen. And, like you said, now it's mostly the abusers who can no longer abuse with impunity that are crying the loudest about downvotes.

I think all the former bid bots and vote selling projects that turned into curation projects after the hardfork have been very good for the platform. I've seen a lot of creators that used to get a few cents for their good content are now getting a few dollars for the same type of content. Even my own so-so content got much better rewards after the hardfork because it got curated by former bid bots.

We need to go after the abusers with our downvotes, and I see a lot of curation projects doing that as well. In the end it's good for those who produce good content. And even those like me who just produce so-so content. Hehe!

And like you said, everyone should be held to the same standards regardless of if they are this that or the other demographic. Vote based on the content rather than based on traits the author was born with and has no control over.

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For sure, most of the curation on this account is manual now, and most good stuff is upvoted to a few bucks before I even get to it.

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I think it's good, it rewards and foments honest activity.

Good point, everyone can downvote whoever so as long as we remember that Epstein didn't kill himself.

Posted using Partiko Android

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Sounds good!

I made a comment to a certain user which is pretty much in line with what you are saying. Basically, the identity politics mentality applied to curation is the problem way I see it.

Ummm... last I checked it's supposed to be about the content. The problem is certain individuals have made things tough for those that use negative curation to adjust payout based on perceived value of the content. They want to be quick to vilify us for daring to downvote any within their protected groups.

May as well give the scammers an open invitation to create alt personas of these protected classed. Then, they can farm with impunity.

That's just BRILLIANT!

/s

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Yep, best to nip that shit in the bud!

Downvoting for reward disagreement was in the original vision of Steem. I think basic etiquette means you should tell someome why you are downvoting if no one else mentioned it and you feel they are genuinely confused.

I alsonthinknthere is nothing wrong with people banding together and deciding on their own standards. Expecting a hardfork is rather silly though.

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Downvoting for reward disagreement was in the original vision of Steem. I think basic etiquette means you should tell someome why you are downvoting if no one else mentioned it and you feel they are genuinely confused.

I usually do if both those conditions are met.

I alsonthinknthere is nothing wrong with people banding together and deciding on their own standards. Expecting a hardfork is rather silly though.

Agreed, people should band together. But they should also decide if using VP to reverse downvotes is worth it or not when they develop a program. How else could you nerf downvotes in such a way?

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Agreed, people should band together. But they should also decide if using VP to reverse downvotes is worth it or not when they develop a program. How else could you nerf downvotes in such a way?

This is key. Eventually, they are going to be defending indefensible stuff. However, I think the appeal is limited because no one outside the block is going to vote for people in the block and downvotes will hurt them. They are better to avoid negative attention.

In the Food Fight Friday group we have see a significant increase in honest rewards since hf-21-22. Where as before a few would see anything over $2 the rest pennies.

Abuse is Abuse, no matter is you are an X Y or Z. Nobody should get a special pass and allowed to abuse at their will. Upvotes and downvotes are what equalize the whole system.

Like you said, the ones crying the most are the ones that got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

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I'm not a fan of downvotes. Hence I leave the cookie jar alone

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The cookie jar is the reward pool in this case... downvotes keep people from Stealing from it. Aka raping it so you don’t get any tasty cookies

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Same. It just causes flagging wars and enemies. If people don’t like either me or my content, I would prefer they unfollow me rather than cause drama. I am here to make connections with people not enemies.

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You can make connections with people without rewards. If you decline rewards or set beneficiary to null or steem.dao, you are far less likely to be downvoted (other than for obvious 'abuse' reasons such as harassment, untagged nsfw, etc.)

If you are complaining about your rewards being downvoted, then please spare us the nonsense about connections.

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I never mentioned rewards; I mentioned flagging wars and drama. Down votes, in both blog posts and comments, also lower the reputation score. I've been there and done that, and I am no longer interested in stirring up that hornets nest again.

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So you don't care for the Triviality of Monetary rewards when you're talking about making connections, you care about the Meaningless Trivial Number, because connections with people not with ememememenies and Reputation Scores..

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If people don’t like either me or my content, I would prefer they unfollow me rather than cause drama.

Who is proposing downvotes for either of those reasons? Neither are valid as far as I'm concerned. Not many actually downvote those they follow.

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It's not about the proposal, but that was how was used against me in the past.
There are all sorts of bad actors on this platform and they really don't like being called out for it.

Finally! Someone talked some sense.

All the small accounts now actually getting curated that were previously ignored, they aren't complaining about downvotes. Don't fall for the narrative. I implore you, check out the backstory of anyone trying to push it on you.

I can actually attest to this. And many more like me.

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I'm glad your experience has improved! Thanks for dropping by.

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Good thing I stick around. Most of my friends here in Cebu are gone. And quiet a few of them have quality contents, but no one noticed prior to HF21/22. I always convince them to go back, but I think it's now difficult to sway their decision to leave.

I always share my post to my social media accounts to convince my friends to join Steem because it's way better now than before.

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X2^ I’ve seen many users get a nice bump in reward payouts.

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Most of them deserve the rewards they get. Good thing meritocracy has been adopted. I am happy with my current payouts. Even at a bearish market, I earn a decent amount, but I didn't withdraw anything. I'm saving it for the future.

Well said. Im still new here and learing the ropes but this tidbit makes everything a lot less daunting. Vote up for you and for decentralized governance.. never heard that before but i like it.

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Welcome to STEEM!

I replied to your greetings post with a suggestion on how to start out with an #introduceyourself post. If you have discord, there are a lot of community chats you can join as well.

Well written. Nobody has the right to milk the system and steal the rewards that is deserved by genuine users.
Instead of complaining, they can use their time to produce good content and raise the standard of the place.

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Thanks. Cheers to that!

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Exactly...

8C46FD26-605E-48FD-AC8F-D6F733F575D3.gif

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Hey @sayee, here is a little bit of BEER from @freebornangel for you. Enjoy it!

It would be quite dumb to remove downvotes, suicide even.

It is equally dumb to fight about them and talk about them all day.

Each person uses their stake upvote what you like, ignore what you don't care about and downvote what you think is harmful.

We don't need controlling possies telling people what to vote for.

Of course they have the right, but that doesn't make it smart.

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Can we make an SPS proposal to drop the subject?! :-)

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I honestly think that would be the best thing we could do!

We def. need more stake!

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Captain Kirk voice: must.get.more.stake

As you know very well, that proposal or anything remotely similar to that will never be funded or executed. Not till I am here anyways! :)

Can I downvote that proxy.token post please, or will it be too insensitive? I don’t think they are ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

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Do it :D

Posted using Partiko Android

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Thanks for stopping in! It doesn't meet my criteria, so I don't know.

Dear @joshman

Interesting read. However I disagree with some parts.

To encourage behavior I upvote, to discourage it, I downvote.

Downvoting only in theory are discouraging any kind of behaviour. Downvoted users most of the time do not even know why there were dovnvoted.

It's a bit like saying that we should promote behaviours by punishing people, instead of educating them and building awareness.

How to achieve that without explaining to user what he did wrong and giving him chance to learn (before being punished) - this method will never work. I've personally seen several accounts downvoted badly without word of explanation and without warning. That isn't right.

Instead of educating users (especially new ones) those with large stakes very often just downvote them for unknown crimes. More often than not forcing people to quit Steemit (amount of users giving up because of feeling targeted is growing every day).

People tell me, don't downvote that guy, he's an A, or don't upvote that gal, she's a B. Screw that, everyone gets held to the same standard.

Ok, so perhaps you can tell me what is "the same standard"? Perhaps all those people are right and you're wrong? Maybe you're not following standards? Why would you assume that what you do and how you think should be considered a norm? I would honestly like to understand.

Don't let them fool you, this whole 'downvotes are violence' narrative is complete bullshit.

Again, fully disagree with you. Steemit asset = users.

And downvotes that are discouraging users (especially new ones) to continue using Steemit are only bringing damage. Instead of bringing value.

Unfortunatelly it seem that many people on Steemit (especially large stakeholders like yourself) do not see users as an asset. Instead they value STEEM token more and this is an asset for them.

Yours, Piotr

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Downvoting only in theory are discouraging any kind of behaviour. Downvoted users most of the time do not even know why there were dovnvoted.

It's a bit like saying that we should promote behaviours by punishing people, instead of educating them and building awareness.

It's polite to inform users as to why it's happening, but how could you enforce that?

Ok, so perhaps you can tell me what is "the same standard"? Perhaps all those people are right and you're wrong? Maybe you're not following standards? Why would you assume that what you do and how you think should be considered a norm? I would honestly like to understand.

If they are MY standards, how could I be wrong? Holding a stake is about influencing the standards. If I wanted even more influence, I would buy or earn more stake. You don't have to like it, but that is how proof-of-stake works.

...And downvotes that are discouraging users (especially new ones) to continue using Steemit are only bringing damage. Instead of bringing value.

What is your proposal? Often I see people complaining about the concept of downvotes, but they don't offer solutions. Is your solution to remove downvotes and enforce centralized rules? That being the case, perhaps you just chose the wrong platform. I ask the same to of all of these people who cannot handle decentralized governance, the vast majority of which have been milking and abusing the system for a long time. Shitty users are in fact not an asset, they are a liability. As I said, the honest folks aren't crying about downvotes, only the ones trying to work an angle.

As long as you continue to view this endeavor through the lens of the existing centralized / authoritarian platforms, of course you are going to respond in such a way. It's all you know. Those who own the stake make the rules, that's the reality. I have more than most, but I'm still a small fish. If I wanted to have more influence, I'd buy more stake. As an entrepreneur, you could fund raise right now and buy 1 million steem for 130k, and have a lot more influence on how things are run. Be honest, how strong are your convictions?

Thanks for the fine thoughts shared here. After HF21, policing the Steem blockchain has become a collective responsibility. This #newsteem has come to stay whether they like it or not. Cheers!

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Thanks for dropping by and leaving a comment!

My stake in STEEM Power entitles me to influence the standard to whatever I want it to be.

Agree, everything would be the same like centralized Community Standards for monetization on Youtube.

What matters at the end is the ratio of who thought it was up-worthy, versus who thought it was down-worthy.

This is simply not true, when something is not always true, it's not true - we've already seen the fights of single rich entity fighting whole community and winning because of SP that one bought. If it would consider things that hurt #newsteem but I've seen post downvoted by the whale because he/she didn't share their views on life and reality!
Many people come here lured by 'no censorship' slogans but in reality those with power are exactly the same as Facebook mods.

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This is simply not true, when something is not always true, it's not true

You lost me

we've already seen the fights of single rich entity fighting whole community and winning because of SP that one bought

I've been on the receiving end of whale retaliation multiple times that have wiped out post's potential rewards, that had nothing to do with the content itself, and multiple times I've had good whales restore them. @blocktrades started healing haejin downvotes for example, folks like @theycallmedan are never shy about jumping in and countering unfair downvotes. This is the price we pay for stake-based decentralization. What do you propose as an alternative?

Many people come here lured by 'no censorship' slogans but in reality those with power are exactly the same as Facebook mods.

You can't censor the blockchain, that's a fact, it's not just a slogan.

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Yeah, those with SP can shadowban, delete your private messages in real time among with power to delete or change any and all activities in real time as well with a full fledged AI that hard censors while your entire account can be locked, blocked or deleted.

#facebookmodsRejoice

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Czesc @jocieprosza

I agree with you. One large account can easily destroy entire community.

Hi @joshman,
I was making my comment but it was getting too long so I decided to post it appart.
Here’s my view on this : https://steemit.com/freewrite/@drakernoise/freewrite-out-of-the-downvote-trail-why
Hope you’re having a nice Sunday
Sending some love over there ❤️

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Thanks, I will check it out as soon as I get a chance! You too!

Spot on! I would say as a newbie I've gotten some downvotes that have been a bit discouraging, but manual curation is going to reward me much better in the long run. I do often see sh*t posts from whale accounts that have minimal payouts and high-paying post from newbies, something that wasn't common not too long ago.

I am just here on this post for the curation rewards!


I would expect to see more and more downvotes to bring your earnings down to a more realistic level. @joshman

@cryptopie post@joshman post
$18.75$48.00

NOTE:   Above are current potential rewards.

Don't get mad. I just could not resist. Just an observation. Had to leave a comment.


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Haha, good one. Thanks for dropping by. You mean my post with actual engagement (72 comments), 19 reblogs, and 8 new followers? He's the number 2 author in rewards (to burnpost which is number 1), and I don't even show up in the top 500. Nice try though. I actually mentioned in the SFR discord that I thought my post was over-rewarded, where were you? Oh yeah, you left.

Screen Shot 20191117 at 7.30.14 AM.png

Reference:
https://steemdb.com/labs/author?grouping=monthly

(update: post stats)

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Ouch, knocked the white knight off the horse.

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Quite frankly I would consider both of us White Knights in our own way. We can agree to disagree in a civil manner.

Enough drama on this platform and instigators. Good luck with that.

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I am way to evil and sinister to bestow that title. So I rightfully disregard.
I am all about the agree to disagree.
Cheers

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That is okay. Made a few pennies off this post and my comment!

Hope you are having a good Sunday. Getting ready to go see what is happening at #splinterlands (farming for #spt votes in a comment, aren't I clever?)

Postscript: I am not looking for a centralized nanny system on STEEM. I just share my opinions. Plus we already have a couple of nanny systems: @steemflagrewards and @steemcleaners. Not to mention all the nuisance downvoting bots. That is enough.

Take care my friend.

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Getting ready to go see what is happening at #splinterlands

That works? I should casually insert #splinterlands into every conversation then!

I am not looking for a centralized nanny system on STEEM

That's good. Try not to internalize this post, it's the culmination of many interactions. This isn't any more directed at you than you are Sgt. Snuffy.

...and you too!

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I know. But a certain Jarhead's comment (yes, I can use that term as I am one {is that identity politics, lol}) has made it clear to anyone who is following this bit of Steem Drama who he is referring to.

Ah, it is what it is. Some folks see it as entertainment. I guess we are giving some of the STEEM masses what they want? So good for us!

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Thank you! I did not have any in my #steemengine wallet!

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Np, just please don't dump it, I'm saving those to buy ice cream for my grandkids,...

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You're upping the drama to new levels! Have a DRAMA.

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

Hello!

This post has been manually curated, resteemed
and gifted with some virtually delicious cake
from the @helpiecake curation team!

Much love to you from all of us at @helpie!
Keep up the great work!


helpiecake

Manually curated by @solominer.


@helpie is a Community Witness.

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Nothing would make them happier than their delegation bots and complex self-voting systems being able to operate unabated

This is why, I (mmmmkkkk311) downvoted your great post. You are delegating SP to one of their bots

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Please do educate me. I have my share of learning to do, just like everyone else.

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@steembasicincome in my opinion this is vote trading circle based on delegation bots farm. The more you delegate, the higher upvote you will get

I guess you forgot to undelegate after last hardfork

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That being the case, the downvote reinforced my point. And if that is the opinion, I'm happy to receive it. Imagine if someone removed that ability, THAT is the crux of my argument.

I'm not sure how votes are actually getting traded as you claim, but it certainly is a type of self-upvote scheme.

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I like the fact that you're so open minded @joshman

I still disagree how downvotes can (and are) being abused (and there is no way to counter it).

If only everyone who uses downvote would also put some effort into contacting their 'target' and explaining reasons behind downvote. But it's often simply not happening :(

Yours
Piotr

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@mariuszkarowski, You and @mmmmkkkk311 are flagging my posts, and I am not delegated to SBI. What's that all about? Also, if you're so against SBI, then why do most of your posts have a large up-vote from @sbi7? Seems a bit hypocritical.

But by all means, do what you want with your stake. Flag away!

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I'm using downvotecontrol.com, just added your account to whitelist

It’s early, it’s still dark in here, I know there’s a follow button around here somewhere....

Ok, I found it.

Very well written, @joshman. Thank you @jlsplatts.

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namaste!

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And a great’fa king response I might add! Namaste!

Preach it mate!

Speaking my mind actually...

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Thanks, glad you dropped by.

I dont care what they say. Those with stake have the most effect on the outcome.
If they dont like it, they can buy more stake. ☺

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Yup, they could buy all the steem and really run it into the ground.

IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THAT AND CRAVE A NANNY PLATFORM...

I support this post 💪

Posted using Partiko Android

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Hi @joshman!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 3.728 which ranks you at #5509 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 81 contributions, your post is ranked at #16.

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • You're on the right track, try to gather more followers.
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Try to work on user engagement: the more people that interact with you via the comments, the higher your UA score!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

I am by no means a Steem expert. I would say the opposite. I have little to no interest in learning the inner guts of Steem or how the sausage is made. I do this for fun and if I earn a little on the side then so be it.

With that said, I am probably going to get slammed for asking/proposing this, but here goes:

If downvoting, or upvoting, could it not be scripted to tie the vote to require a comment on why the vote was given? Would this not eliminate some of the bots, voting wars and circle jerks? I think maybe it wouldn't be too much to ask that if something is worthy of a vote, either up or down, that it is worthy of saying why.

On another note, I left Steemit over a year ago and just returned recently. I have only received one downvote since, and that was on my first post after I returned and only because I mentioned someone in my post that the other person was at war with. It was a big downvote and almost made me say"screw this". I am glad I did not because my rewards for content are much better than what they were before I left. I am glad I came back to Steemit.

Learning a lot from the comments here, other than the spam comments :-)

!giphy popcorn

Posted using Partiko iOS

As a follower of @followforupvotes this post has been randomly selected and upvoted! Enjoy your upvote and have a great day!

Only problem with ms social media is they don't pay to post.
I agree with this post even if I disagree with the downvote feature but we all have our own opinions on things.

Thank you joshman! You've just received an upvote of 56% by thejollyroger!


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Congratulations @joshman!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following categories:

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