Response To @papa-pepper Post About Haejin Reward Pool Rape “OPEN LETTER TO STEEMIT INC., THE WITNESSES, AND THE WHALES"

2년 전

 


@papa-pepper asked me my opinion on this issue weeks ago when he wrote his post here.  I have read through the whole post and all the comments a couple times. I have spent weeks pondering this very difficult question. I have wanted to write about it for a while now, but I have so much going on and it is a very complex/difficult and controversial topic which I generally stay away from, because if you piss off a whale around here it's a huge waste of time and resources. 


I have a great amount of respect for @papa-pepper as he is one of the most committed Steemians on the platform and has contributed a vast amount of content of which is exemplary as a standard. I have also known him since I first got on Steemit way back in the day. He linked a photo of his beard on my introduction post haha. 


Basically in summary of the post, @papa-pepper is asking the community what is to be done, especially the whales and Steemit Inc.


The consensus seems to be that there should be something done and that limiting the posting amount to 4 per day was a viable solution. 


First, I want to address the haejin issue by itself, because in all honesty I have no desire to say what anyone should do, let alone a whole group of people. So in that sense I have no opinion as I truly believe in Freedom. With that being, said I do have a LOT of opinions about the varying layers of complexity in this matter. 


It seems pretty obvious to me that Ranchorelaxo is either Haejin himself or has an exclusive deal with him, as rancho ONLY votes for haejin and interacts with Steem in no other apparent way. In truth, I don't actually see a problem with this, however what I do have a problem with is that Haejin pretends like rancho votes for him because his content is somehow so special. I respect honesty/transparency, not deception/manipulation. 


It is also apparent that he posts so many times a day because he is trying to get the most rancho votes as possible, yet he tries to pretend like it's because his "fans" want him to post 10 times a day. Yet if you look through almost every post, 99% of the rewards for every single post are due to Haejin and Rancho EXCLUSIVELY. There are quite a few minnow votes too, but the value is almost exclusively 1 entity. It is not hard to create hundreds of minnow accounts and set them to auto upvote your main account.  So in conclusion, all these "fans" don't really mean too much IMO. This just appears to be MORE deception/manipulation. 


Finally, I have not seen any evidence to show that his charts/predictions are very valuable. In FACT most of the predictions that he has made if not ALL that I have paid attention to for selfish interest have NOT been accurate. Now of course it's not easy to do, and most people actually are not very consistently accurate in this crazy volatile market. The ONLY time I have seen him to be accurate was back when basically EVERY crypto was going up and thus pretty easy to predict gains.....


So all in all I have very little respect or like for Haejin. On top of this, I have seen plenty of evidence to show that he has actually hurt a lot of decent people in this community with tyrannical flagging. I don't believe flagging is wrong, just like guns aren't inherently wrong. The question is how do you use them? It seems very apparent that he has used them to silence people asking questions or saying things he didn't like because he is so manipulative and deceptive. I have also very rarely ever seen him respond to any comments or give comments upvotes even legit ones. 


In conclusion, it doesn't seem like haejin cares about this community at all except for the huge payouts he is getting. 


So that addresses my opinions on Haejin. Now for addressing the much bigger issue which is the discussion of how to deal with it. 


I personally do not like the idea of limiting posts to 4 per day. Not because it influences me at all - in truth, I don't think that I have ever made 4 blogs in one day. It is simply that I love freedom, and this is by far the most uncensored and freedom based social media platform on earth. "Rules" are not about freedom. 


Making rules that affect everyone simply because there is one or a few people being disrespectful is not a solution IMO. In fact, that reminds me of how the fucked up bureaucracy of USA and other tyrannical governments work. "Oh look someone used a gun irresponsibly, now let's make it illegal for anyone to have them. Oh someone got hurt using food grade hydrogen peroxide, now lets make it illegal for everyone!" etc etc. 


I believe in freedom and responsibility. So I full heartedly disagree with more rules/limitations. Yes, people abuse freedom, but rules impose less freedom on the responsible ones too...


The truth is that scammers are going to scam, and rules just make it harder for the ones following the rules. It is so easy to create alt accounts and just spread the SP amongst them, or to simply upvote comments. Rancho and Haejin use almost exclusively 100% of their voting power on Haejin, so even with a rule of 4 posts a day you still have the exact amount of SP to combat either way....Rules don't deal with scammers, they only limit the ones who follow rules. 


What I like more is that guilds form and choose to band together to oppose something they feel is wrong, which we have seen happen.  Accounts like @fulltimegeek, @hendrix22, and others have shown not fully successful but honorable and powerful examples of this. 


Also despite whatever anyone may thing about @berniesanders he has done more than anyone I am aware of to try and counter the rewardpoolrape by Haejin. He has done this by using his own time and finances to counter what he believed in. We may not all agree on everything but this is what people should be doing. If you want to stop or influence something that put your time and resources on the line. 


Real solutions are not in people doing things for us, but us creating what it is for our selfs. 


Leave it up to the free market. Petition the community to NOT upvote Haejin or to use their SP to downvote or delegate to a guild. This to me seems much more in alignment with freedom and responsibility. A free market solution. 


Just as rancho can use SP however it wants, so can we. Then, when there is no longer incentive to post 10 times a day it will stop, or haejin will just leave. I do feel we need some kind of community flagging guild, but again the problem will be who is right and who is wrong? Who decides? It is very difficult, very tricky. That is why I love the free market. Let it decide, decentralize as much as possible, provide as much freedom as possible for people to act how they will, and let the community decide its value. 


So in conclusion, I do not feel that Haejin's contributions to this community are worth such high rewards in such a short amount of time, yet I do not feel imposing rules on EVERYONE based on one person's actions we do not like is fair or in support of freedom. Also, I think that even if we did make rules, it would not actually work on anyone besides the people who follow rules - which are NOT the ones we are trying to deal with here. 


I believe in this community and see a bright future. It is up to us to propose solutions, communicate, and work together for common purpose. Disagreements will be guaranteed, but fighting doesn't help. Working together for what we see as the ideal is what brings great progress. We simply have to be also able to live and let live. Nothing will ever be perfect, not even Steem. 



I am now doing 50/50 payout posts simply because the payout is more valuable that way atm, but I will be converting it all to $teem to continue my perfect record of cashing out ZERO $teem nor ever powering down, thus powering up!



I appreciate your support and am grateful to be here in the SteemVortex. I welcome any feedback you have and if you feel I am valuable to this community please share an upvote!

∞§∞SteemOn∞§∞


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@quinneaker, thanks so much for this well thought out and well argued article and response to the whale-war.

SP can be a blogging tool, an investment to some, or a way of earning an income from blogging for others.

Many are here on steemit because they just love blogging (genuine bloggers), some just love the community (Curators). Others are here because they want to make an income from blogging (authors). They hope others will vote for their high quality work. Then we have the readers. They never blog ir curate, but just read what interests themselves. Media-sources, like newspapers are looking for ways to use steemit to extend their reach. Lastly we have the investors. These are people who own steem (or steem power), and they want to earn a reward.

Unfortunately the interests of all these groups are inter-twined. If we tinker with a rule to please one group:

  • Genuine bloggers
  • Curators
  • Authors
  • Readers
  • Media
  • Investors

we may upset or drive away another group, or several of them.

Let’s take the group known as “investors”. Almost everyone on steemit is an investor - to some extent. Who wouldn’t want to see steem priced at $1 million each? For most, I accept that investing is not the main purpose of being here. However my main point about the investors is this:

If you take away the possibility of profit, then investors will leave. If investors leave, then steem will have no value.

Who here wants the price of steem to be zero? Who wants it to be like sand on the beach. Nobody cares how much they have? Nobody wants more. Nobody cares if they have less. We need investors if we want steem to retain its value.

Steem is a special type of crypto currency. You can earn an income if you own it. Without that income stream, many investors would just leave. They could own bitcoin insread, or one of the thousands of other crypto-currencies instead.

If steem has fewer investors, its value will be much less than at present

It can be dangerous road if we start to prevent investors from making a profit. If steemit is to make changes they need to tread carefully and in very small steps just like the Federal Reserve. If investors are spooked, they will leave and the price of steem will be lower, or maybe worth nothing.

Why am I writing so much about protecting the interests of investors? It’s because I strongly suspect that @haejin and his sister accounts are in it only for the money. Do I agree with raping the reward pool in this way? Absolutely not! Should we put a stop to it? Here is where I say “Tread carefully, and in very small steps”

Any action which is taken could affect all steemit users.

Let’s take the stock market as an analogy. The top executives of Apple earn salaries of millions. They also own millions of Apple shares which are paying them a passive income worth millions. Let’s say we write a rule which says big investors can’t get dividends. What would happen? We all know the answer - welcome Communism. Production collapses. You can forget about seeing the next iPhone. There won’t be one.

There are many ways for investors to earn a reward or passive income from steem. I won’t discuss all the ways here.

@haejin is doing this (earning a living), by voting for himself. We all agree that we would prefer him to vote on other people’s high quality posts, rather than his own repetitive ones. As things stand, he is not going to get the same return by doing that. By voting for himself, he gets between 75% and 100% of the reward. By voting for others he would only get a maximum of 25% of what the vote is worth.

At first sight I thought - why not make both author and curation rewards a straight 50-50 to authors and curators. On reflection, that would reduce the return to investors (not good).

My Proposal

How about increasing the reward to curators? We could start by going from 25% to 30%. The net result would likely be a rise in the steem price. It would increase the incentive to hold steem power and use it for voting for others.

It’s a small step to test the impact. Later, the 30% for curators could go to 40% and so-on.

Nothing in this post is intended to support any side. The point I am making is to “tread carefully”.

We want the price of steem higher, not lower. We won’t get a higher price if investors are pissed off. We need investors to give steem some value. Don’t reduce the reward for self voting. Just increase the reward for curating.

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Also I have no problem with the fact that you upvoted your comment for 100% which I almost never do. Because its YOUR investment and you are CONTRIBUTING to this community and I have seen how much you give.
Yet there are those who think "you should never upvote your own comments" I say fuck that its just judgmental tyrannical absolutism.
Your comment is valuable as is your investment in the community and your votes that you give out.

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Like you, I almost never upvote my own comments.

However, I will make an exception when I have put a lot of hard work into a comment, AND the blog to which I am replying already has so many comments that mine will sink below the point where people stop scrolling - for me that’s usually when you get to the “thanks for sharing” type of comment.

In those cases I feel it is justified to use my own vote to re-postion my comment to the top of the list.

After all, I invested hundred’s of thousands of my hard earned money in steem.

I think that having paid that much, I am entitled to use the “Priority lane” when needed.

If anyone doesn’t like that, I would mention that my purchases increased the price of steem making their blogs worth more than if I never bought.

I felt my comment at the top qualified on both counts (effort and placement). Hence the reason for a very unusual self-vote.

I first heard the “You should never vote your own comments” from @transisto. That was about 4 or 5 months ago. He threatened to flag me for doing it. He told me that instead of voting my own comments I should be using my voting power instead to vote down spammers.

I accepted @transisto’s advice, (as one does to a whale with reputation of 72), and I almost totally stopped voting for my own comments. I also followed his advice to instead use my steem power to down-vote spammers, plagiarists and reward pool rapists.

The price of steem is a lot higher now than when he made those comments. Also I bought a lot more steem at high prices so I am looking at a loss. If @transisto is listening in, it would be intersting to his current thinking.

I expect you already know this, but for the benefit of others: You can see the voting pattern in the form of a graph of any steemian on www.steemreports.com.

Here’s my voting pattern. It’s 1.5% in favour of myself and 98.5% voting in favour of other people.

DD788C3D-CBFC-44A1-AECD-623389D172DD.jpeg

As you say, it is my money invested and I should be free to choose to give away my votes, sell them, or vote for myself. Let the free market decide.

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Hey man, you need NOT justify your self to me!

As I said not only do I not have a problem with it, but I respect it. I totally acknowledge that its YOUR investment and you deserve to use it as you want. Also as many people tend to over look your investment makes** our** investment worth MORE.

As a final note Transisito is one of the most hight value self uprvoters in all of Steem.....SO maybe he wasn't at that time, but its the exact opposite now. There are very few accounts who upvote more of self than him. I also don't have a problem with him doing it either because thats how he pays him self for his huge investment in Steem and he also does a lot of good for the community as well. Very much like you.

I have respected you for many months, I think I first commented to that end at least 4 months ago on one of your posts. I see things for how they are very quickly and saw you as not only a big investor but someone with integrity and contributions to be made.

∞§∞Best Regards∞§∞

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Thanks, it’s great to have you in the community!

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You to!

There are a lot of social issues goin on Steem right now but I trust in the free market, and the price of steem is low now which is especially bad for you buying in higher but I also trust that will go above what you invested in and you will get a profitable return while also participating in a revolutionary experiment!

Hope to get to know you better!

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Great comments by both ! following you now , and thank you for all that you do for this community !👍✌💕

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I appreciate very much the in depth comment sharing your valuable opinion.

I also very much appreciate the vote of support to my very thought out and in depth blog addressing a very important and controversial topic.

I don't disagree with anything that you say, in truth I agree with most of it. Yet again my point is the free market. Rather than making hard for rules that influence everyone, let the individuals and free market decide.

I am well aware of how important it is to have investors, for without investors the price of STEEM would be nothing. So yes its important to provide opportunities for investor profit. However again why increase curator profits instead of just allowing big investors to upvote their own posts? seems much easier to me....If I was a millionaire I wouldn't want to have to spend time looking for high quality content. I would just want to get paid for my investment PERIOD.

I see you are an investor and a much more benevolent one than usual. This deserves a lot fo respect. IN truth because of your history the community should SUPPORT YOU WITH UPVOTES even if all you do is make a post saying "I am so and so, In invested so much and I give out so and so amount of votes a day" if the community doesn't compensate you then FUCK THE COMMUNITY!

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@quinneaker. I am indeed an “investor”, although some peopke might say that I am not very good at investing since I bought most of my steem at a much higher price than today. LOL.

I find it very nice and respectful when readers upvote my posts or my comments, although in truth I don’t regard it as a source of income. I will keep my day job for that, and in the future, hopefully my pension. Still the votes are fun, and an interesting way of keeping score. If I earn $20 on one blog and $5 on another (excluding any self promotion awards), then it gives me an opportunity to ask myself “What I do which was so much better on the $20 blog?”

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hahaha the future will tell if your a good investor or not....it may not appear so now but in a year from now may be so.

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Why havent you posted since long maam?
Their is no hesitation in upvoting your comments maam as you take time to read the blog and than comment.
But everyone is doing that.

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Hi @mnishh. Thanks for that. Please also see my reply above to @mejustandrew which answers your question.

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That is the reason why you were not blogging often,by reading some of your blog i got to know somewhere about you which makes me follow you since today.
Bdw how much do you invested to purchase so much of steem power.
Stay connected maam.

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I,put my life savings into steam and borrowed against my house to get more. I’m all-in.

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wow, thats real commitment! I am also all in but not quite that in hahaa. I think it will pay off.

Blessings~*~

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Thats great.
Huge respect towards you maam.
Keep steeming.

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Wow, this comment and the analysis it provides is simply great! You made finding of a solution so responsable, great job swiss man!

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Hi @mejustandrew. I think I owe you a reply to another of your comments as you were concerned by my general silence on the blogging front.

My reason for lack of blogs is simply the real world. I am trying to keep the right balance between life and the firtual world. Seems life is winning a little.

Also, I want my blogs to be very valuable. It takes time to evolve an idea to a really good blog.

Thanks for your nice comment above.

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It is great to hear that you are okay and comitted to this place! On the other hand, I believe that Steem, as a social platform, should welcome activity of its users, no matter if they are writing long and refined articles or just share their ideas in short posts. In my opinion, if you would like to share some thoughts or any stories that happened in your life that you want to talk about, you should be posting them freely because in fact, everything here is about socializing and interaction, and you already are a great steemian, as you already know :)

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Agreed, part of what is so great about Steem now is that there is steep chat, dmania, dlive etc.

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Agreed !👍👍👍

Hi @quinneaker, I enjoyed reading your post and also I went through all the comments. I love your sincerity in tackling this issue.

I am not sure if there can be any solution to this haejin issue. But I have a mantra which is, nothing is impossible. So, sooner or later, their might be a good solution to the reward pool rape.

What most people see steemit as is that garden of Eden where everything and everyone is perfect. Everyone is looking out for each other and also, everyone cares for everyone. But the truth of the matter is, nobody cares.

Steemit is like real world. Shit happens and if you are influential, you get easily get away with it. It is no different here. If anyone thinks they can make that utopia happen, they should not bother wasting precious time.

Like @swissclive mentioned in her comment that there are:

  • Genuine bloggers
  • Curators
  • Authors
  • Readers
  • Media
  • Investors

(BTW, I found this post going through his profile. It's been long he updated his blog, so I was checking up)

What we should focus on is having a form of environment that is sustainable for a longer time. Like a balance. An ecosystem which will be sustainable. The truth is that some parties will be affected. Especially we the minnows. But we are called minnows, right? That's what the big fish feeds on in the big ocean. There will still be enough of us. It's survival of the fittest.

What am I saying? Rules of "post this", "don't post that" won't work. No, not on steemit.
IMG_20180408_200519_425.jpg

Steemit will soon be 1 million users, haejin is just one of the many people that will come. Some crazy rich guys will still come and do what they like. We should not see this as a battle against one person but as a battle to sustain this system.

Just my opinion the. It's a free world, I can say what I want to say.

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@mr-aaron That’s a good post. There have been plenty of solutions proposed. If one or several are implemented by the developers, I hope it will be done after due debate and, if possible, in small steps.

Here’s an example of what could go wrong:
Steemit decides to allow advertising. The aim is to increase the reward pool to help minnows.

Result: The increased reward pool encourages spammers en-masse. Genuine bloggers and readers flee to find an ad-free space on another site.

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Wow...thanks for your response.

Any of the solutions proposed and intended to be implemented must be done with caution. A little at a time to see how it will turn because every change now is an experiment. It can turn out well or go the other way round.

I've been thinking of what you said about increasing the curating reward. At first, I thought it was not a good idea because they curators get to take more. But thinking about it again, that may be the best solution. Who wouldn't want more money? Curating becomes more attractive, investors becomes more attracted.

This too should be done a step at a time. And also, it should be done in a way that the posts with bigger payout attract lesser curating rewards.

stay blessed

I love your approach to freedom, and that you point out that limiting everyone for the sake of a few doesn't really solve the issue. Your comparison to the banning of guns is a great one. It's interesting to see how a community can come together to make change, how they can make shifts that benefit the whole, and how they deal with someone who is standing in dishonor. It's a tricky situation for certain. I'm interested to see how we all work this things out. Thanks for your opinion @quinneaker. I value your perspective.

For me, limiting the blog posting to a limit of 4 is better.
I have not posted more than 2 times a day since I came to steemit because I try to bring up quality post and just posting for the money. If the steemit platform must be good then greediness and stinginess must be dealt with.
I don't bother to follow most whales because they never upvotes any comment on the posts they make despite having a huge amount of steem power.
But as a statistician I was taught that nothing is 100% correct except God and that also applies to the platform. But together we can make the platform a better place.

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Your are intetiled to your opinion but unlike me you are proposing something that is beneficial to YOU rather than the whole. I also never post more than 4 blogs a day as I clearly stated in my post yet I would not limit others their own free will unlike you.

SO even though you have a tyrannical approach I will not flag you or judge you simply disagree logically and reasonably!

Blessings~~*

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@inspiredgideon1. I don’t really agree that whales never vote on comments. That is true of some whales.

The reality is that a whale gets a lot of comments, literally hundreds on each blog. I do too. In theory you should only vote 10 times a day at 100% or 100 times a day at 10%. Whales are forced to be to be very discerning in who they vote for. Therefore, those who do vote will only vote on the most outstanding comments, and on the most outstanding blogs.

In the early days I had less than $30 of steem and getting even a single vote worth a cent was a struggle. However, I remember that after I had written 10s of “outstanding” blogs and 100s of high quality comments, I would sometimes collect a whale vote worth several dollars. I noticed that those whales who do vote rarely vote at 100%. They tend to reduce the voting weight so they can spread their votes around more.

I don’t think I qualify as a whale, but I must be well into dolphin territory with my 70k of steem. I guess I often behave like a whale when it comes to voting blogs and comments.

My 100% vote, at it’s peak, was worth over USD 50, even over USD70. At the time, the price of SBD was well over USD 10.

These days with the price of SBD below $2, my 100% vote is worth around $8 or USD 12 in fiat, before curation. I probably vote that pretty much like some of the whales. I read 8-15 blogs a day, but only actually vote on a few. Maybe I vote for only 4 to 8 blogs, mostly at 100%

Then I read comments. Probably I read more than 100 comments daily but I don’t (can’t) vote on many comments. Maybe I vote 4 to 8 comments per day on average. Often my vote on a comment is very small - at 1%, but if a reply to me is really outstanding I may vote more, all the way up to 100%.

Lastly I use down votes to curb spammers, plagiarists, and reward pool rapists. A down-vote counts the same as an upvote. Maybe I down-vote a couple of times a week.

Take a look at any of my blogs and you will find plenty of votes from me on the best comments. Some whales behave like me. If they receive 100s of comments per blog, they can’t give everyone a vote. They may vote only for the best half-dozen.

Sometimes I specifically reward those who make an appropriate comment. An example is here: https://steemit.com/spam/@swissclive/today-you-will-get-up-to-usd55-up-vote-from-me-by-flagging-or-warning-comment-spammers

The bottom line is that whales tend to vote like dolphins and minnows, but with 100s of comments on their blogs, your chance of being lucky on a whale blog is lower.

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...and the type of post, in my experience (for the bigger whale votes)

After several weeks of blogging current events, and politics, have reduced it to nearly nothing over the last few days.
I started writing my fiction again...

Hey presto! I get noticed and upvoted again - after weeks of not one single 'biggy upvote'.

And I am in a much happier place, personally speaking by writing the things I like, rather than things I feel I should write about.

Just me very recent observation...

Oh, and a question if you know anything about this, or have an opinion....

Do you see any negative aspects to writing a lot of my book in posts- before I complete the actual book? (it will be only online, I think).

Cheers!

...plug! - here are the first 2 excerpts of the book I am now finally writing!

https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/i-haven-t-got-a-title-snippets-part-1
https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/i-haven-t-got-a-title-ireland-trip-part-2

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Hi @lucylin. Well done, and good to hear from you again. I don’t think most news stories are appreciated here. People have other ways to get news if they want it.

Steemit is well made for writing things you are passionate about.

I would love to write a book on steemit. I see two problems - it’s not really set up to make that easy. For example if you are writing the 10th chapter, it is maybe too late to make a change to the first chapter (more than 7 days old). Also, if you write an epic novel, like War and Peace, you will only be paid for the next 7 days. Publish a paper book, like Harry Potter, and you could be paid for the next 30+ years.

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Thanks for the reply.
I was scouring my follow list and came across you!
(your posting rate had dropped, and you went off my radar)

So ok, there wouldn't be a downside then, really?

(If I post 80% of my first edit in posts, I can then collate and fine tune them, and put them together in a complete book..?
(if you see what I mean)

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Exactly right. That’s the way I would do it. There’s no downside if you don’t mind only having a 7 day window for posting rewards and edits.

You would post the chapters 1 by 1 then collate them and edit them and post it as a complete book.

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Thank you so much @swissclive for taking out your time to respond to me and explaining things to me.
But I wish to ask a question. I came in this January but from my little stay here, I observed that a good steem power will go a long way to help. Please how can I really grow my steem power to get more benefit. I have being feeding from my earning on the platform since January due to the financial situation/challenges am into
Your response will be greatly appreciated

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There are several ways to get steempower:

  1. Earn it by writing lots of excellent blogs and comments
  2. Buy it
  3. Lease it (see here)
  4. Use voting bots which pay out more than you invest

Each has its upside and downside.

You can live without steem power. Just enjoy the pleasure of reading and writing. Bohnare free of charge.

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Thanks for the quick response. God bless.

Another great post , I loved this : "If you piss off a whale around here its a huge waste of time and resources " So true @quinneaker !
and also this : "I believe in freedom and responsibility. So I full heartedly disagree with more rules/limitations. Yes, people abuse freedom, but rules impose less freedom on the responsible ones too..." As well as your whole post , I totally agree !!
I also believe in this community and its future , but we need to work together like you said ! and all this flagging going on now by Bernie Sanders has now moved into the trending section , and hes flagging a lot of people if they say say something he doesn't like , no matter how small it is in the comments section , like he did to my son for standing by someone else , by flagging all their posts , really neeeds to stop as I see a lot of good steemians leaving steemit including him because of all of this . Even though haejin I think deserves it , not everyone does .
A nice peaceful community would certainly be a welcome change my friend !! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK !!💕✌👍 Upped and resteemed !!✌👍

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Thanks for your feedback! It is much appreciated as you have been a very active part of this community for a long while.

We are the power~*~

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Your welcome !👍👍👍

There are downvote guilds, really - you mentioned @fulltimegeek and @hendrix22, all them are essentially acting as one.
I don't agree with a limit of four posts a day, but I do think perhaps some kind of vote power shift might be in order. There have been, when looking at updates, THOUSANDS of downvotes on haejin, and though they have put a dent in his earnings, it's not enough to get him to stop doing what everyone has a problem with. Essentially it is acting just as the corrupt US: rich few people have massive influence, whilst the masses have almost none. It's Citizens United: money is speech. I'm not sure what the solution is, because just making all downvotes equal also opens the door to revenge flagging by spammers. But as it stands, haejin can destroy a minnow's rep with just a few downvotes, but thousands of minnows and even a handful of whales and dolphins can't touch his. Maybe downvotes should effect higher rep proportionately to the rewards? So like all the people downvoting him wouldn't nuke his rep, but thousands of downvotes do chip away at it?
I have read a lot of posts about this topic, but am still rather a noob and don't pretend to fully grasp the politics of it.

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Yes you do not fully grasp this topic and that is ok, especially when you acknowledge that.

Yes it is true that there is a majority of people who do not agree with Haejin but it is not true that "everybody" dislikes Haejin.

It is also not true that If everyone donwvoted him he would make profits. There are actually very FEW people who downvote him in percentage. If EVERYONE down voted him he would have a rep of negative and ZERO profits.

That is why I say let the free market decide.

Blessings~*~

It certainly is a tricky situation for sure but here is one solution I have thought about. If someone created an application that used SteemConnect where all users over a certain reputation had an equal vote of whether to basically flag @haijin 's posts into oblivion.

We could make the reputation criteria pretty high like 60. That way people had to be on here for awhile to get it.

If We vote yes then the Witnesses are required to flag his posts.

We would all rather not go this route but this is a pretty extreme situation. He is like a virus and if we don't neutralize him the whole system is harmed.

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Its a decent idea though we could organize something like that just with a post. A post by a powerful whale of which stated that with a certain amount of value or votes etc they would listen to the community overall consensus and use the VP accordingly.

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Yeah, then the whales who downvote would be able to say Sorry @haejin but the community decided this and we have to do what the majority wants for the community. Then WHAPPPP...... Flipper Smacked

At this point I feel like he is Agent Smith in the Matrix ...... we will have to call in Neo.

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hahahaha well as an individual he is very powerful, but as a community is VP is nothing. It wouldn't take much actually do stop him if there was real community consensus....Just goes to show how complex and difficult it is to live in functional sustainable community.

Part of what I am so proud of for creating such harmonized paradise here in @gardenofeden for over a decade~*~

Why would we limit everyone to stop one person's account? Why should we all be punished for one person's actions?

I can think of several scenarios where a blogger might need more than 4 posts per day on steemit:

  1. Breaking news updates
  2. Sports updates on certain teams, tournaments, players
  3. Travelling to dangerous lands, and keeping audience aware of whereabouts and safety.
  4. Photo blog used for capturing various key moments in nature (like an animal giving birth or a rare plant blossoming).
  5. Gameplay posts that require back and forth participation, and quick posting activity.
  6. Warnings of new activities of scamming, phishing, and abuse on the steem platform, and beyond.

Many of these kind of posts cannot be made on other big platforms like facebook, youtube, or twitter. It either won't reach the intended audience, or it can be pulled down because it goes against the terms of use that the corporation can alter at any time.

Not every post is going to be viral or important to the entire steem community. It just needs to be available to remain visible for those who want it.

If you want to stop a single account who you think is abusing the system for everyone, it might take a whole lot more than 4 posts per day to get the majority of the community to come together on this to take responsible action. People will have to be constantly made aware of when, and how, to take action to halt abusers on the platform.

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So much truth in this post! Thanks for this...

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I am happy to share truth and honored that you deem it so~

Blessings~*~

Rules don't deal with scammers, they only limit the ones who follow rules.

this is absolutely true
bitter you are going to punish the one that commit the mess around than punishing everybody by setting new rule.

Better ban them if that is to be than, than causing trouble to everybody.
Petition was done, I think steemit inc will act also.
just like this scammer account that keep scamming and giving phishing links, that should be ban from here. Or let them roam freely

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There is no way to "ban" an account but it is possible to flag/donwnvote an account or simply NOT upvote it. I feel that is the way it should be and is a perfect free market system.

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That is also the flaw of free market. Scammers account are freely roaming because there is no way of banning

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Free market can always come up with solutions, its not a problem, it IS the solution~~*

Interesting article, I like your opinion ..

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Glad you find it interesting, it is an important topic and conversation/discussion is key to any community.

I agreed with the points expressed, Some might just ignore it and that can ruin the reputation of this platform if no one try to speak it up. Have a nice day @quinneaker

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all too true.

Brialliant response to a difficult problem! I agree, let the Steemit community decide on value

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Bam~*~

Great job @ quinneaker , also and resteemed !👍👍👍✌

Nice post, thanks for sharing

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@bsaddi you will ruin your reputation and get flagged if you don’t read the blog and make interesting and meaningful comments. ‘Thanks for sharing” wastes time and space.

Wonderful response, Quinn. Thank you.

It's amazing how often we need to be reminded how beneficial freedom is. We so often want to control others just because bad things happen. Bad things will always happen and focus on controlling others just makes more bad things happen.

At the same time, boundaries are good. Art is framed by the boundaries of the canvas. Systems and structures can be tools to create wonderful things. The balance, I think, is to find out what changes increase well-being for the greatest number of people (nash equilibrium type stuff) and what changes are just power grabs. We can certainly do a lot of things manually but at some point it makes more sense to automate and systematize what most people in a community choose as a default approach anyway.

Example: organ donations went way up when they changed the form to be opt out instead of opt in. Simple changes like that can help improve the world. The challenge for us is much of the world is not all that simple (and neither is the motivational and economic realities of the STEEM blockchain).

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So I agree with what your saying but what your saying seems way to vague. Its like your hinting at something important yet not really getting to the practical and relevant point.

Which is kinda weird because usually it seems like you are not affriaid or shy of getting to the point and saying what needs to be said even if its controversial or difficult. So maybe its just ur not taking it seriously enough since its just a comment on my post and ur busy?

I don't want to make any assumptions, but I would like it if you refined your comment to be a bit more specific/practical/relevant to this post as to what "should be done".

I really don't think there are many if any people in this community who would give more comprehensive feedback in this matter than you.

Best Regards Brother~*~

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My thinking at this point is that some things are broken AND that many (if not most) of the top-down fixes have unintended consequences that are worse (which I think you outlined well). My comment doesn’t have a specific answer at this time because I don’t think we’ve found one yet. As much as the free market of downvotes might solve this, the reality is it’s not working. It’s expensive to downvote so many avoid it and prefer upvoting others instead. I’m optimistic a systems level improvement can be made, but even some of the best suggestions (a separate voting power pool for downvotes, for example) also have some unintended possibilities.

Sometimes the best answer we have is admitting we don’t have answers yet and continue to evaluate new options. Sure we can say “let everyone do whatever because FREEDOM!” but that attitude (taken to an extreme) might sap some of our motivation to continue working to find a systems level solution that increases positive benefits for more users instead of just a small handful. People want a meritocracy, but they are quite difficult to create in practice. It’s a combination of building fair systems with simple rules (but no simpler) combined with personal responsibility.

We’re still working on the optimal combination of code changes and community action with tools we already have.

Thanks for important post.....i liked your post....
Upvote done.....
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Hi, Quinn! As this topic is so hot at present that even an almost-totally tech illiterate and posting-as-blogging-centric such as myself can't help but notice it, this morning I thought I'd hop over to your blog and see if you'd commented on it. I'm glad I did, as I actually feel that I have a better understanding not only of the situation after reading your post and some of the comments on it, but also of some of the technical aspects of Steemit which usually go right over my head. So thank you (and @swissclive) for that! I've also added a few more like-minded Steemians to my following list whilst reading, which is always good. I say like-minded, because I am with you all the way on the subject of freedom with responsibility, both here on Steemit and elsewhere. There's no way in hell we should be limiting posts or slapping down rules carte blanche because of the self-centred behaviour of a minority of people who are just here to reap the harvest without care for the platform or the community of individuals whose labours and love bring it to fruition.

Your last paragraph sums it up perfectly for me. Where action needs to be taken, it needs to be done in a spirit of love and care for this amazing little 'world' we're all creating here, not in a punitive spirit. That doesn't mean that the actions will be wishy-washy or nothing at all, just that they must be measured against the yardstick of freedom from tyranny.

I wish I could offer some constructive ideas of what those actions might be, but since I barely understand the basics, I will leave that to those whose forte it is instead and continue doing my best to contribute something of value here in my own little way.

Much love to you and all at the Garden!

Jay