Got upvotes but no payout? An overview of the situation around the minimum payout threshold

11개월 전

Repository

https://github.com/steemit/steem

Introduction

The Steem minimum payout threshold is repeatedly a hot topic, and often confused with the vote dust threshold. A lot of users are not aware that there is a minimum "value" of posts and comments required at the payout time, otherwise neither the author nor the curators are paid. The most obvious questions are typically "why", and "where does the money go"?

This contribution is meant to give an overview of the mechanics behind this threshold, partly answer the questions above, and to show how many posts and comments are affected.

Outline

  • Scope of the analysis and tools
  • Steem minimum payout threshold 101
  • Number of posts and comments with and without payout over time
  • Value of posts and comments with and without payout over time
  • Summary

Scope of the analysis and tools

The analysis is based on all posts and comments that were published in Juli and August 2018. The data was queried from @arcange's SteemSQL. All queries, the data processing, and the visualizations were done with python using pyodbc (DB access), beem (Steem-related lookups), and matplotlib (visualization). The full sources to generate the images in this post is in my GitHub and linked at the end.

Steem payout 101

All Steem posts and comments are evaluated for payout exactly 7 days after they were created. Until right before this point, all STU/$-values shown with the post are estimations. The internal unit of vote "values" are rshares. Those are calculated based on the voter's SP, voting power, and vote percentage. The $-value shown on the interfaces is the sum of the rshares on a post in relation to all vote rshares on all posts and comments within the last 7 days (recent_claims) and the size of the reward pool (+ conversion steps from STEEM to SBD, based on the STEEM price). This also means, that the $-value shown next to a post can change considerably across several days without a change on the votes on this post, only due to a varying voting activity or STEEM price.

Now comes the payout threshold: Posts and comments are only paid out if their value at payout time is at least 0.020 STU or more. If a post has less than 0.02 STU, neither the author nor the curators are paid. If a post has 0.02 STU of more, these rewards are shared between the author and curators.

Why?

I have to admit I can only speculate on this question - if you know more detail, please let me know! I suspect that this is related to the precision of the assets (STEEM/SBD/VESTS) as stored in the blockchain. The minimum unit of STEEM and SBD is 0.001. There are no smaller values. Let's take the example of a post with 0.02 STU and 75% thereof going to the author -> 0.015 STU. With a STEEM price of USD 0.75 and a 0% SBD print rate like now, this would make 0.005 STEEM and 0.005 SP (in VESTS) for the author. 0.005 is already not far from the minimum quantity. Now put some beneficiaries on the post, and the author payout get's even smaller. Let's further reduce the Steem price (despite we all know it's going up soon**), and the numbers get smaller as well. At some point it's not possible anymore to go lower. This may go down to a point where authors receive nothing, but curators and beneficiaries may still get something (VESTS have 6 digits precision).

Where does the money go?

It stays in the reward pool and increases the value of all other posts. A predefined amount of STEEM is added to the pool per block, but payouts happens based on all votes from the last 7 days and the STEEM price. A post below the payout threshold doesn't take anything from the pool, so there's more for everybody else.

This, of course, leaves the question on how many posts and comments are affected and how much STU is "redistributed" to all others due to this threshold.

Number of posts and comments with and without payout over time

nposts_absolute.png

This graph shows the number of posts and comments that were made in July and August. On the left are only the posts and on the right are only the comments. The blue line shows the number of posts (left) and comments (right) created per day. We can see here again what we already knew from other posts: both the number of posts and the number of comments per day is steadily decreasing. in Orange are the number of posts that haven't received a single vote. This number is a small fraction of all posts, but a big share of all comments. In green are the number of posts that received upvotes, but weren't paid out because their total value was below the 0.02 STU.

The absolute numbers are a bit hard to compare, so let's switch to a relative scale:

nposts_relative.png

What's surprising here is that, despite the steady reduction in the number of posts and comments, the relative number of posts and comments without votes and those without payout don't show this trend - they are mostly constant (with some fluctuations, though).
We can see that around 70-80% of all comments did not get a single vote. Around 30% of all posts got some votes but weren't paid out - that's every third on average!!! Around 10% of the posts didn't get a single vote, and 10% of the voted comments weren't paid out.

Value of posts and comments with and without payout over time

rshares.png

This graph shows the value of the different post and comment categories in absolute rshares on the left, and in relative numbers on the right. The blue line on the left shows the sum of rshares per post creation day. The orange line right below is the sum of all rshares coming from posts. Voting on posts makes up the biggest share of all votes. The green line on the left is the corresponding number for the comments, making up a significantly smaller share of all vote values. The graph on the left additionally contains three lines that sum up the vote rshares that weren't paid out. These make up only a very minor share (value-wise) and are hardly distinguishable from 0.

The graph on the right shows the voted but not paid out posts and comments again on a relative scale. Taking all post and comment rshares together, the posts without payout make of around 0.0-0.3% over this time range. The average value across the two months is 0.18% of rshares that are not paid out. With an average daily payout of 59.6k STU, the unpaid posts and comments redistributed around 105 STU per day to all other posts and comments.

What does it take to get above the threshold

An interesting effect of the payout implementation is that the $-value (at payout!) can change considerably over time. This can be visualized by taking the average number of rshares required to get to a value of 0.02 STU:

sbd_per_rshares.png

This graph additionally shows how many rshares a 100% upvote at 100% VP generates for a voter with 200, 300, and 400 SP. While 200-250 SP were sufficient to make a 0.02 STU vote in July, this value raised to around 300 SP at the beginning of August and even got close to 400 SP. Until the end of August, around 350 SP were required to make a 0.02 STU vote.

Summary

  • Around 30% of all posts and 10% of all comments receive votes but are not paid out because their value is below 0.02 STU at payout. I was actually a bit surprised that the number for posts is that high. I think, however, this could benefit from a more detailed look to see how many of these posts are actually "human"-made before jumping on any conclusions.
  • By rshares, the posts and comments without payout only make around 0.18% of all rshares per day on average and are equivalent to around 105 STU per day in this period of time. This number is actually smaller than I expected. On average, this means around 0.005 STU per non-paid post/comment, resulting on average in 0.001 STEEM plus some SP as author rewards.
  • Like the number of posts and comments per day, also the value of each vote is on a downward trend. A 0.02 STU vote currently requires around 350 SP, while the same was possible with slightly more than 200 SP in July.

So is there a problem?

I'd say it depends... An awareness problem, this for sure! A lot of users have no idea about this, and a bit of confusion with other thresholds comes on top. I hope that I could shed a bit of light on the topic. From technical/implementation point I think I understand where the idea about the threshold comes from.

What shoud I do?

As long as a post of comment already has at least 0.02 STU or is anyway expected to exceed this value, your vote is not worthless. Nothing to worry about in this case.

However, if you are likely the only voter, you may want to rethink your voting behavior. I've seen a couple of posts with suggestions in the sense of "don't waste your votes for comments if your vote isn't at least 0.02 STU". I personally wouldn't suggest that in general. I'd rather say: "be aware of the threshold!". If you want the author to get something from (only) your vote, better chose a value that will be above 0.02 STU still at payout time. If you don't have enough SP, a vote on a comment isn't necessarily wasted but can also be seen as a sign of appreciation - also without monetary value.

If you receive a lot of votes on comments that stay below the threshold, you may want to checkout @dustsweeper. @dustsweeper lifts comments above the threshold shortly before payout, so you get at least "something". See their FAQ and @bashadow's comment below for details.

Proof of authorship

All scripts to used to make this contribution are located on my Github: https://github.com/crokkon/steem-analyses/tree/master/1809_dustpayout

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Hi @crokkon

Great work as usual, and I see no reason not to select this as staff pick for this review week :D

I find this part interesting for starters:

Let's take the example of a post with 0.02 STU and 75% thereof going to the author -> 0.015 STU. With a STEEM price of USD 0.75 and a 0% SBD print rate like now, this would make 0.005 STEEM and 0.005 SP (in VESTS) for the author. 0.005 is already not far from the minimum quantity. Now put some beneficiaries on the post, and the author payout get's even smaller. Let's further reduce the Steem price (despite we all know it's going up soon**), and the numbers get smaller as well. At some point it's not possible anymore to go lower. This may go down to a point where authors receive nothing, but curators and beneficiaries may still get something (VESTS have 6 digits precision).

The fact that the author could lose a payout but the curators (and beneficiaries) would still take a piece is interesting for sure, I would have thought this to be the opposite.

When I look at the following chart, I can only presume that even when STEEM was higher (even last month), the number of comments with votes but not paying out had votes not close to 0.020 STU - The number of comments in this criteria has remained fairly constant.

This suggests the the fall in price has not pushed a large number of comments with votes below payout, and I had originally suspected that many additional comments would fall into this range over the past month.

While 200-250 SP were sufficient to make a 0.02 STU vote in July, this value raised to around 300 SP at the beginning of August and even got close to 400 SP. Until the end of August, around 350 SP were required to make a 0.02 STU vote.

A little concerning considering the number of accounts we have in this range - over 1.1 million (99%+ of all account) who could not give a payout to a post/comment if the only voter!

The 'What should I do' section at the end is great, and I wish for as many eyes as possible on this. I am likely to return to copy/past (and reference of course) this text to field the questions I know will be put forward over the coming months.

Thank you, top stuff!

Asher [CM - Analysis]

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Thanks, Asher!

The fact that the author could lose a payout but the curators (and beneficiaries) would still take a piece is interesting for sure, I would have thought this to be the opposite.

Yes, this is fascinating! However, this is only what could happen if there were no payout threshold. I doubt it can happen with the threshold.

This suggests the the fall in price has not pushed a large number of comments with votes below payout

Yes, this surprised me as well. Could be an interesting follow-up to look into the characteristics of the posts and comments below the threshold. Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if human-made posts and comments only took a small share...

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Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if human-made posts and comments only took a small share...

I agree. It's possible to separate the auto-posts from the humans? If so then this metric could produce some interesting results. Cheers!

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to some extend it could be possible. But as often, it's hard to say without having had a look into the data first...

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Thank you for your review, @abh12345!

So far this week you've reviewed 1 contributions. Keep up the good work!

Thank you for the analysis. I see in the comments that there may be a little bit of confusion on @dustsweeper, and what it does. There really is no "Fee" to use @dustsweeper. In fact you receive a benefit from @dustsweeper. You put in 1 steem, and they put in 1 steem into your piggy bank so to speak, so when dustsweeper comes around and upvotes two of the dust level votes you received you can sort of look at it as one self upvote, and a @dustsweeper upvote.

So the person that gave the vote gets a reward, you get the reward the person wanted to give you, and dustsweeper gets a reward for helping both of you. Half of all the dustsweeper votes you receive are from your steem invested, and the other half is from steem dustsweeper invested in you. No fees involved just a deposit to your dust bank, you get all the money back.

Steem price hopefully will go back up, I do miss being able to cast a lot of votes that count. In the meantime I will continue to try and earn and power up Steem to SP.

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That was quite unexpected. Thank you. I just happen to like dustsweeper and am a supporter of what they are trying to do, again thank you very much. Looks like I really owe you, your vote was enough to push me to 59.007 rep from a 58.9something when I went to bed.

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Thank you for your remark, @bashadow, you are of course right. The term "fee" was indeed misleading here. I've updated the post and linked to your comment for details. Thanks! :)

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I just hope that the rise in steem price is not to far around the corner. needing to use 75% for a pay-out level vote is not easy on the vote bank, so fewer comment votes, slightly lower content votes so I can vote the occasional comment. Adjustments we all need to make them every now and then.

Great analysis as always, tying in nicely with the last post.

I thought the threshold was $0.028.. or am i just plain wrong?

You'd think it'd be in the FAQs wouldn't you!

It now takes me a 25% upvote to raise a comment above with 3.2 active sp, talk about a decline!

I don't actually find the findings that alarming given the small numbers.

Posted using Partiko Android

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Thanks @revisesociology! No, the constant is really $0.020. But going for slightly more is certainly a good idea, because the value is evaluated at payout and not at the time of the vote, and with the current trend...

Good point about the FAQ, it could be worth a try to get this aspect in and possibly raise awareness!

Edit: I came across the $0.028 in the @dustsweeper posts - the additional 0.008 is what they chose to assure that the final payout is definitely above 0.02.

great post, and you are so correct, many people, including me get vote dust threshold and payout threshold mixed up.

@dustsweeper is an awesome tool, yes there is a small fee, but when you have a lot of redfish following you then the votes dont amount to much its really worth having paid the small fee.

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Thanks, @paulag! Yes, the topic is rather confusing, and the distinction between STU before payout and SBD/STEEM/SP afterward doesn't make it easier.
I haven't used @dustsweeper myself, but I'm glad to hear positive feedback from your experience!

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you should give it a try, you only need to send 1 steem to get start and you get it back via votes

Hi @crokkon many thanks for the statistical info on steemit and the voting and earning system. As a noob there is a lot to learn and it almost seems to get more complicated the more I learn. I've been told the learning curve is steep, but I'm getting fitter the further I climb.

And thanks to @paulag for directing me here to find out these details.

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Hi @julianhorack, glad you found here! Yes, the learning curve is indeed pretty steep and there are a lot of things that happen in the background. But inner workings of Steem are a super fascinating topic - keep climbing :)

It is an impressive piece of work. I was not aware of the minimum threshold. Is it a fixed threshold that you can point to the line of code in the blockchain? Does it also mean that the percentage of the posts and comments can increase if the price of STEEM and SBD decrease, which would indicate that only small portion of posts by influential people or posts backed by a large group of people could reach any payout?

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Thanks @espoem, the corresponding value in the code is STEEM_MIN_PAYOUT_SBD and is used in is_comment_payout_dust() in reward.hpp.
@timcliff made a post a few months ago following this constant across the code.

While it is possible that the percentage of posts and comment that fall below this threshold can change, it surprisingly barely did in the analyzed time frame (see the 2nd figure), despite a ~30% change of the vote value in STU.

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Thank you for the link. I could just imagine that lots of people are discouraged when the price drops, which means fewer people engaged in voting. I suppose it only supports the idea that new and tiny SP holders have it hard unless they join a community or they are recognised by a minnow or dolphin at least.

I think that 30% is quite a lot. Is there a way to see what kind of posts they are? I suppose you made some similar analyses in the past focusing on the content types and length.

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I also think communities are key for new accounts. Getting recognized is certainly possible but hard...

30% is indeed quite a lot. There are ways to see what kind of posts these are. I didn't want to make this post even longer, but maybe it's worth a follow-up investigation. I wouldn't be too much surprised if the fraction of "human" posts and comments among them isn't too high, so that could be one thing to look into.You mentioned already type and length. Other metrics could be self-votes vs. votes from others, or reputation. Many ideas, little time :)

Just curious, but I was debating with a friend over the curation trails and the very minimal votes many in the trail get. Using Steemworld it appears ot me most of them get nothing for their minuscule votes, but the leaders of the trail don't believe me. Steemworld shows out three places to the right of the decimal 0 payout. What is your take on it?

Thanks for the breakdown on the payout math.

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Well, following a curation trail (e.g. voting after a leader-vote that is typically larger than yours) is very unlikely to give you curation rewards, unless the really big hitters come after you. You should follow a trail if you support the type of content that is curated, not for curation rewards. If you want curation rewards, you should vote these posts before others. Curation trails increase the curation rewards of the account leading the trail, but usually not for those following it. Does that answer your question? If you're interested in the math behind curation rewards, see here.

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Its funny I too have seen this faulty logic before by people who run trails, following curation trails benefits those you follow ;p

Regarding this comment:

Around 30% of all posts and 10% of all comments receive votes but are not paid out because their value is below 0.02 STU at payout. I was actually a bit surprised that the number for posts is that high. I think, however, this could benefit from a more detailed look to see how many of these posts are actually "human"-made before jumping on any conclusions.

I'd say most of them were human. If you trawl through the noob posts there are literally thousands that have a few votes and no payout.

For a start, they get completely ignored by the established steemians, so their only votes are from fellow noobs.

Do the math: they start with 15 SP delegated from steemit. To get to the payout they need a 100% vote at 100% voting power from at least 23 other noobs with 15 SP (to get about 350 SP in upvotes).

In practice, they might get 10 votes, and those are NOT at 100% voting power, because the voters are voting away at everything (they are too new to grasp their voting power is draining).

After a week or so of getting votes and no payout no matter what they write, they give up, which is why Steemit has such a high abandonment of users.

This will get worse after HF20 - there won't be any starting delegation from Steemit for noobs, and they will be allowed to vote even when their voting power is completely gone...

It would be nice if established steemians sought out new people and delivered a few votes to them every day - but I see a lot of talk about engagement, but then people stick to their existing circles.

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Thanks for you comment, @rose98734! I can't tell if you're right that most of them are actually human from the data I've shown here - I think I should really look into the posts without payout more closely :)

You raised a very important aspect which I completely ignored in this post: HF20!

there won't be any starting delegation from Steemit for noobs

Do you have a source for that? While it will be possible to create accounts without delegation, I haven't seen an announcement that the Steemit signup will do this?

But another aspect is the vote value downshift by 1.2 SP. While you currently and ideally need around 23 15SP votes, you'll then need at least 25 of them or more with "realistic" VP values.

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My source was the following from steemitblog:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/proposing-hardfork-0-20-0-velocity

Which said the following:

The current system also incentivizes attackers creating multiple accounts in order to acquire free STEEM, which again increases the overall cost of maintaining the protocol. To solve this problem, we propose a new method of burning STEEM (i.e. destroying the tokens and removing them from the token supply) on each account creation and crediting the account with permanent minimum bandwidth instead of providing Steem Power to the new account.

As always, the steemit team is so focused on the abusers they haven't thought through why the abuses are happening in the first place. It's because it's pretty much impossible for a noob to go from 0.1 SP to 50 SP legitimately. They either give up, or figure how to game the system by opening multiple accounts. The option of writing and getting discovered is blocked to them because it's now too difficult to even earn $0.02 which will give them around 0.017 SP. They'd have to toil for aeons with thousands of $0.00 posts and a few $0.02 posts before they even break into three figures of steempower.

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Indeed, this sounds like they might use the new account creation mechanism for the Steemit faucet - let's see once HF20 is active!
I think for new users it is key to join one of the existing communities and engage with established users. I remember that I "sold myself" for any kind of contests back then to get some SBD/STEEM, lol...
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it is quite some effort to build up SP without own invest.

Speaking of, I've sometimes felt an attitude among users that they "expect" to have a Steemit-funded vote that is worth "something". Let's not forget that Steemit gives out these accounts for free, you can post, vote, comment, and eventually build up your own STEEM/SP from nothing. Yes, the vote is worth close to nothing, but the "social network" or "blog" aspects are fully usable without own invest. You typically don't get monetary gains from other social networks or blogging platforms.
I've signed up for Golos a few month ago to see how that works and their free account had so little SP that I couldn't even vote. I had to buy some tokens in order to be able to vote at all.

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P.S. Here is the account of the type of noob I mean:

@highlandwalker

He takes photographs of the Highlands of Scotland on his walks. He's trying hard to engage - voting for people, resteeming, leaving comments. But despite being a member since May 2016, and writing 134 posts, he has managed to go from the 0.1 SP starting steempower to 0.913 SP.

My vote is only a cent, so sometimes I am able to tip him into the $0.02 payout level, but as the price falls it gets harder and harder.

"If you don't have enough SP, a vote on a comment isn't necessarily wasted but can also be seen as a sign of appreciation - also without monetary value."

Dear God, Save all minnows from this manner of thinking. DON'T vote dust, my friends. No one cares about appreciation in this internet world. It is cold, hard cash that is appreciated. Go in the curation league of @abh12345 and see how others are making this work.

Take care of the pennies and the dollars will follow :)

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If all you can vote is dust, except if you add 0.005 to a post value, why not vote and add a nice reply to a comment? The 'cold hard cash' of half a cent isn't going to help anyone yes, but may get you a 10 cent vote in return.

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Nope - not buying that one. Until your vote "means something" don't waste your time voting comments is my idea.

No one cares for your .001. Just comment and take your chances. Yes, vote for posts down to 90% power each day and get yourself up to a 3 cent votes asap.

Maybe vote on comments that already have 3 cents, but I would not even bother with that.

"add a nice reply to a comment" <<< Yes, do that all day long. The good comment is what will get your the 10 cents, not your .005.

If you want to do the dust sweeper thing, that is a different story, I think, but I have never looked into that plan to know enough about it.

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hey @fitinfun, thanks for your comment, but I agree with @abh12345. If Steem is only about "cold hard cash", then we should better all vote for ourselves 10 times a day. Yes, a couple of users are actively practicing this, but a lot of users - including you as far as I can tell - disagree with that and (also) use the social aspects of Steem. Asher's league is a perfect example of that. I personally appreciate a dust vote on my comments from accounts that aren't able to exceed the threshold. And they have a good chance to get back a vote above the threshold for a meaningful comment. They didn't lose anything with that vote, they used their stake, only it benefits all authors and not the single voted author. It's a different story, though, if you can exceed the threshold but still make your vote go dust...

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They did lose something. They lost the ability to get a curation reward for a vote they paced on a post. They wasted their already limited power.

I do not care about people who vote themselves all day long on short posts. They rarely get too big and then some whales usually come and kill them at that point. With a few notable exceptions I still don't care about.

Going in the curation league of @abh12345 is a great way to learn how to maximize your curation rewards and I recommend it constantly. I am pretty sure dust voting is not a recommended strategy over there, but I have not been paying attention recently.

It's not only about the cash but this lady is still at the front door for noobs making them think they have a chance.

get paid for your good content.PNG

I can't imagine why you appreciate a dust vote. Do you enjoy watching people rip up dollars bills and throw them to with wind as well? I hate dust votes and try to help the person see the error of their ways if I can. I send them this old post from @thedarkhorse:

Your 2 Cent Vote is Worthless, The Real Deal on Dust Votes

I will "try" to upvote dust votes enough to get a payout on it, but my vote is not strong enough to do that often.

"And they have a good chance to get back a vote above the threshold for a meaningful comment." <<< EXACTLY - no dust votes required.

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Ok, I guess we won't come to an agreement on the best practices, but I think we agree that people should be well aware of the threshold :)

Please take the linked post with a grain of salt because it contains some confusion about the different assets (STU/SBD/STEEM), it ignores the rounding of the frontend and contains some statements which are simply wrong.

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But the theme of "Don't. Vote. Dust." stands lol.

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They lost the ability to get a curation reward for a vote they paced on a post.

Unless you are front-running bots, the curation rewards from a redfish account are likely to be way below 5/10 cents a week.

Forget about adding 0.001s together and go all in with an upvote combined with a comment, especially on a reply to a reply on a post where no-one has upvoted Any comments - this will push that comment to the top, even if the payout will be nothing.

Even a dust vote can make a huge difference to visibility of a comment in this case. And, if someone else the sees this comment a dust account has upvoted and votes it too, the curation reward here is likely to be far superior of one coming from a post.

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Learning to front run bots is a good skill to learn for your future payouts. I still do this thanks to you. I have several places I can go to and vote before bots get to them and I do this daily. I realize this is small potatoes, but If I get 0.020 instead of 0.001 on many votes a week, it makes a difference over time.

Sadly, that 5-10 cents a week is more than noobs get on all their posts in many cases.

Upvoting comments, especially your own for visibility, is something many people here frown upon. I have been talking to several people who were doing that rampant comment voting for a while and since have stopped. The reason they stopped was that they kept getting bad remarks about it. I cannot believe you support this idea.

But I'm not someone trying to get whales to upvote my replies, so I do not know the ins and outs of what they vote for. I almost never even visit those posts and when I do, I retreat quickly. I am sure this is to my own detriment, but I cannot take the butt kissing up there.

I agree that if you get big votes on a comment after you voted it you can get money for it. This may have happened to me 10 times in a year and a half. I upvote good comments on my posts and others frequently and as far as I know this is charity on my part, even though small.

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Upvoting comments, especially your own for visibility, is something many people here frown upon. I have been talking to several people who were doing that rampant comment voting for a while and since have stopped. The reason they stopped was that they kept getting bad remarks about it. I cannot believe you support this idea.

You misunderstood.

Voting a comment made by another deemed to be the best comment on a post, that has not been voted on as yet, will:

  1. Push it to the top - appreciated by post author and commentator
  2. Get it seen by author, commentator, future visitors

More visibility, more chance of seeing this comment (and your awesome reply), more chance of future votes.

A 5 cent vote on top of a dust voted comment will earn the dust account holder more than voting on a post in most cases.

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Hmm... I would love to see stats on how many dust votes end up getting A+ rewards. I still don't recommend dust voting, but if you know of someone making it work, please introduce me. I'm all about the minnow tips over here.

Awesome data analysis that also explains some of the core of the Steem blockchain. Thanks for the data digging and the interesting post you wrote about it!

Thanks for this. I will need to re-read it tomorrow once I have achieved the necessary caffeine/blood ratio for proper comprehension.

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Thank you, @allseeingewe, also for the resteem! Good luck with the caffeine/blood ratio :)

Not that I can add something interesting, but I wanted to let you know that you again wrote a brilliant investigation!

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Hi @crypto-econom1st, thanks for coming by :)

Interesting analysis @crokkon, although the results are not entirely surprising. I'm glad you mention @dustsweeper, as it is one of the very few "countermeasures" those of us who are active posters and commenters have.

This does make me wonder about the efficacy of some curation trails; one can but hope that the many people who are getting a 6% upvote from a series of accounts with 87SP (or something like that) aren't just getting "a nice warm feeling" but getting NO actual rewards.

"Margin of error" matters too, here. Meaning that having a 0.020 value right off doesn't mean it will still be 0.020 seven days later... which is also where the DustSweeper "overvote" comes from

Thanks for "spelling this out," however!

=^..^=

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Thanks for you comment, @curatorcat!
I think curation trails are not much of a problem with regards to the payout threshold for the author. Once the post exceeds $0.02 in total value, even the tiny votes slightly increase the value and the post will be paid out. Curation rewards from trails for the voters were mentioned in another comment here - that's of course a different story.

The fluctuation (or unfortunately the decrease) of the vote value is indeed an important aspect. I also try to keep a margin on my "typical" comment upvote %, but with the current trend I might need to raise the percentage again a little. @dustsweeper is in a slightly better position there, because it usually votes between day 5 and 6, so "only" 1-2 days of unknown vote value trend until payout.

Hi @crokkon,

Great analysis, thank you for breaking it down to details!

I've been curious about something lately, but perhaps I don't have the insight to fully grasp it.

I've seen votes being cast quite, if not very early early after posting (sometimes immediately after, via a bot), but with an insignificant value (and usually at 1% or less weight). If checked, the worth of the upvote is 0.000, occasionally 0.001.

I was wondering if there's a reason for casting such a small votes (and so early). Do they get anything from curation this way?

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Hi @gadrian, in many cases this is to get some curation rewards. The smaller the vote, the higher the relative return, the more votes they can cast, the higher the total curation rewards from all votes. This can go to a point where bots are voting only a few minutes after a post was created. The first voter on my post here is an example for one of the best curation-for-profit bots around currently.
A vote directly at or only seconds after post creation typically doesn't give curation rewards.

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Thanks! Ok, it makes sense. But now I understand better why people use the term false curation. Plus I believe they discourage real curators, by placing themselves among the first to curate and voting "en masse".

This is great info, thanks @crokkon.

interesting information mate

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well done @babyino, @zeroknowledge seems to like your short but concise comments, 10 per day - you should ask him to upvote them a bit earlier than day 5, so all others can benefit from your valuable contributions!

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