Are those who kill and eat animals more manly?

2년 전

And.. Are those who choose not to do that more feminine?
Does having empathy and caring about others make you a pussy? Or does having empathy and caring about others make you stronger?

I just read an interesting article that I think is important for people to consider, cause a lot of those who argue the most for animal products are men who think it's manly to hunt and murder other sentient beings.

And that.. Somehow they think our Paleo ancestors were these highly predatory people who lived significantly off of hunting when the fossil evidence actually shows they ate almost entirely plants and only rarely ever ate animal products.

So.. There's definitely a perception or image out there that hunting and killing makes you more manly, but I would argue that.. What's more manly is having some compassion and caring about others and not hunting or killing sentient beings unless you absolutely have to for survival.

Which is a far cry from what we see every day at fast food places across the world, very few people actually hunt themselves. Most of these people just pay someone else to slaughter an innocent animal that was bred and raised and enslaved for that purpose.

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In the end I think it comes down to necessity, why kill another sentient being if you don't "need" to?
And how many of these people killing animals REALLY need to for survival? Humans are smart, are you telling me they really couldn't find another alternative with overwhelming plant options out there that are cheaper and less demanding to farm?

To take advantage of and exploit the weak, is not strong or couragous in my opinion. It's the opposite.
I think it's strong and beautiful and brave to stick up for those being unjustly oppressed or bullied or targeted.

To me.. True strength is compassion and vulneribility and showing that you're actually a human being and not some robot or automaton or a cold blooded ruthless killer.

Here's an excerpt I appreciate from the article and the main points/arguments plus the link to the article will be linked below.

"5. Vegan Men Are Compassionate Leaders
Real men lead with personal action when others are standing on the sidelines.
Right now, there are few choices that can have a more positive impact on our personal lives and the world around us than adopting a vegan diet.
Taking a compassionate stand against sickening animal cruelty is manly.
Preserving our environment is manly.
Improving our health and the health of our families is manly.
But eating fast food burgers because that’s what the TV commercials tell us to do? Not so manly."

Also here's the main arguments/points in the article.

  1. Vegan Men Have Higher Levels of Testosterone
  2. Vegan Men Have a More Attractive Scent (Apparently many women find this attractive which is why it was listed)
  3. Vegan Men Are More Fit
  4. Vegan Men Have Glowing Skin (Apparently many women find this attractive which is why it was listed)
  5. Vegan Men Are Compassionate Leaders
  6. Vegan Men Can Cook (Not all can, but the article argues that it promotes more of this behavior)
  7. Vegan Men Have Less Erectile Dysfunction
  8. Vegan Men Live Longer

http://www.oneingredientchef.com/vegan-men/

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Great post! We would all be healthier if we ate a vegan diet.

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Thanks! I tend to agree.. I mean.. I've met some people who really think they need animal products to be healthy.. But I have to say I have my doubts.. I think maybe they just didn't try hard enough.. A lot of people have problems going vegan probably because they don't eat enough since plants are less calorie dense than animal products, but if you simply eat more.. And most people love eating so it should be awesome that you get to eat more.. But if these people who failed just ate more, they would probably solve the problem!

I don't personally think our physiologies are so different when it comes to diet, I'm open minded to the possibility some people may need animal products, but I haven't seen the proof.. And I'm very skeptical and doubtful.. SO yeah.. I tend to agree with you.. I think we would all be healthier. Can't prove it.. But.. I do definitely lean in that direction highly.

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Less methane gas in the atmosphere with less livestock also.....

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Nice to see, you both are vegan . Me also vegn

I didn’t realize that vegan men have higher testosterone. That’s good to know. Posts like this are so powerful. You really hit the point home about empathy. I try to be vegan, but I struggle with it. I still eat some meat, but less and less. Thanks for sharing this, for it gives people like me the strength to further withdraw from the vicious cycle of animal cruelty.

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I wasn't aware either actually and I've been studying this stuff for a while. Definitely good to know! Also the living longer and less erectile dysfunction part which I did already know about is a major plus as well!

Not to mention many other things, it truly is amazing how many benefits you can find if you spend the time and look.. Really makes you wonder why eating animals became SO widespread and so overwhelming to the point it's even threatening our species .

Was it greed? Or just a natural sort of thing? Or perhaps something even more nefarious? I wonder.
Anyways.. Glad to hear you appreciated the article and you're welcoming for sharing. It's awesome to hear you try to be vegan and that you're going to work on it more in the future! If you ever want any help with anything about it feel free to ask, I definitely don't know everything and don't pretend to, but I might be able to help!

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Thanks. I’ll follow you. I can tell that you are wise because it’s rare to see someone admit that they are not an expert yet still want to help if they can. True humility.

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You're welcome. And thanks for the generous words. But yes.. I do agree that humility is pretty rare these days, I like to talk about all kinds of weird subjects that in my opinion probably can't ever be proved and will probably always remain philosophical but a lot of people act like they know everything, and it's really frustrating sometimes debating these people who can like never admit to being wrong about anything ever and if anyone ever has a question of any sort they always have an answer that is 100% right no question about it.. Ahemm. Sorry, lol.. Yeah I deal with that a lot and I try to stay humble and strangely enough the older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize.. I less I know. I don't know very much at all in the grand scheme of things! Heh. Though I have done a good amount of research on certain subjects more than others, this subject is one I'm not amazing at, but I do have a couple years under my belt of active and diligent study!

Thanks for the follow! I already followed you earlier cause I wanna surround myself more with people who actually care and aren't total ruthless sociopaths, though now I'm going to give your page a closer look and see what kinda stuff you're posting. Cheers newcastle.

Resteemed.

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Thanks for the resteem bud! Hope you've been doing well. :) My father recently joined steemit. Would be cool to connect you two, though I still don't think he's seen the picture you did. I sent it to his email a while back and asked him recently and he didn't know.. So.. I need to send your picture to him again, I'm sure he'll like it. He's really liking steemit so far and I think it would be extra cool to him now to see that one of the people on here painted a picture of his.

Kind of annoys me I didn't make sure he saw it sooner. For some reason I thought he saw it already, I guess I'm just so overwhelmed and mentally exhausted lately that it slipped, my bad! But.. Anyways.. I hope you've been doing well michaelstobiersk! You're definitely one of my favorite people here on steemit. :)

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Thank you very much. Would love to connect with your dad. What is his username?

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You're welcome. And awesome! His name on here is @irvinesimages
Maybe you could even show him the image you painted yourself directly and upload it as a comment on one of his blog posts? I bet that would be a pleasant surprise for him to see! :)

Hello friend apolymask, here if I have it difficult, because I must admit that I eat meat, not in large quantities, because it is not my favorite food and on the other hand here in my country is extremely expensive (there is definitely a cultural theme in each country and each region that influences); although I must say that I have never killed an animal, I definitely could not. I had never stopped to review all the points that you raise in your post, where some very interesting advantages are placed. Of course it is difficult to say from one day to the next that one is going to change their feeding style; but, maybe if we are going down the frequency of consumption then we can reduce somewhat this situation, that siceramente as you raise it in your post looks unjustified. For my part and my family we have already begun to reduce the consumption of meat; Although it is not the solution, at least it would be helping a little to reduce the unjustified killing. The advantages of being a bit more vegetarian we will see, in my family, in the next few months. Thanks for the info. Greetings.

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That sounds awesome that it sounds like you're going to work on reducing your impact on the animals more! :) Very cool. Even though we have a bit of a language barrier, I'd be happy to help you in any way I can if you have any questions.. I don't know everything and don't think anyone does, but I do know a lot and I might be able to help! I've been studying the subject for a couple years now and have got pretty deep.

You're welcome for the info.
All the best to you and your efforts!

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Thank you apolymask - very kind, I will keep it in mind

A very sad true..

Personally I have never hunted game for meat, but I also think it is necessary so the deer population doesn't get out of control. One time me and my bro were on ramin noodles for weeks out in the middle of nowheresville. Finally we came across a huge rattle snake so we dispatched it, skinned and ate it. We didn't let anything go to waste and I even tanned the skin and still have it. But finally getting protein after so long really helped us physically and mentally. I would say it was a necessity at the time.

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I'm not sure I agree with the idea that humans need to intervene in animal populations. If humans suddenly went extinct almost all other life on the planet would thrive.
Also ramens have protein, all edible plants do. The only thing that doesn't have all the essential amino acids which is required for health and muscle production is gelatin, which is basically made up of ground up animal bones.. But yeah, when you're in a survival situation and if you don't have enough food, I would probably do the same thing. Fortunately I'm not in a survival situation and I can just go to the store and get whatever I need.. But.. If I was in survival situation.. Yeah.. I'd do what I need to do up until the point of killing another human or stealing from them or whatever. I do see a difference between humans and animals and I wouldn't kill a human like I would an animal to survive.. Though.. That doesn't mean I still can't care about animals even if I think humans do have a higher right to life. As I mentioned before.. If I don't need to kill them.. Why should I? It's pretty simple logic to me.. Thanks for sharing your thoughts bud!

We don't need meat and certainly not in the vast quantities many consume. That is bad for you and the planet

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Well said. :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts steevc.

I think you may have a 'chicken and egg' thing going here, let me expand.

Those that empathise more would seem to lean more towards Veganism I think. Being 'manly' or being less empathetic of course means that killing animals is not an issue. So the real question seems to be between empathy and veganism (except for those that chose being vegan as a life choice or the 'trendy' thing to do ). Is empathy manly? I dont play the game of stereotypes. Is being empathetic a human trait? I believe it is, but it has been separated from us.

Unfortunatly, in todays society, the choice of empathy is really removed because one can just enter a supermarket and buy a piece of meat that has no resemblance to an animal right off the shelf, its as easy as lifting co-co pops. Its just presented as another foodstuff in a packet and no more thought for the average consumer is given. Therefore no empathy required.

On the other side of the coin, I believe one should have the experience of killing an animal if one should believe it is OK to pick a part of them from a chilled shelf. I believe in all things leadership is by example, and this was no different. Under professional guidance, I have killed a sheep for food. I would not say it is horrific (as it was done under kind circumstances), but I found myself stroking the animal and talking to it after the 'death blow'. I won't go into the details here.

Suffice to say my meat intake has drastically declined, but not gone completely as a consequence. I am, however, moving more and more toward a plant based diet. Does that make me less a man? That really depends on your definition of a man. You decide if you think that makes you a wiser judge, meanwhile I'll just be me. I do know that killing after killing will dull you to a point where it would be normal. Do I choose to do that? No.
Let me be frank though, should it become a survival situation, I probably would kill an animal to eat. Maybe we should be asking the question as to why foodstuff plants are not readily available everywhere. Would it not be better to plant apple trees to line a road? would it not be better to encourage vegetable planting in parks and gardens? why do we insist on trees in public being barren or chastising people for having food growing instead of useless lawns?

I'm sorry, I digress. To answer your question from my own point of view? No, It does not make one less manly or womanly to not eat meat in the same way it would not make someone less of a person because they love another person or animal.

We really have to get back to judging an individual by their actions. Not eating meat may just have those 8 things to their favor from the article, but I would ask 'does it make them a better person?'

WOW, thanks for the post man, dont know where all that came from :-)

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Hey thanks for the thoughtful response. So far I've really enjoyed talking with you here on steemit and I think you have a bright mind for the most part. I was really eager to read what you had to say based on our previous discussion. I appreciate your point of view, though I disagree a bit and I hope you'll also listen to my response to your response in a genuine and fair way. :)

Is empathy manly? I dont play the game of stereotypes. Is being empathetic a human trait? I believe it is, but it has been separated from us.

Yes empathy is a human trait, it's where the word "humane" comes from which generally has a positive connotation. Which is one reason why the term "humane slaughter" is like a double negative and it doesn't make sense. It's not humane to slaughter or kill other beings if it's not necessary.

Also. To further ram this point home.. We have clinical medical definitions for people who don't have empathy and their conditions are considered diseases or even sometimes physical or genetic brain damage and we call them "sociopaths and psychopaths" the definitions basically mean they don't care about others and don't empathize.. So.. Yes.. It is human to empathize and it's considered a psychological disease to not care about others by the medical community.

Unfortunatly, in todays society, the choice of empathy is really removed because one can just enter a supermarket and buy a piece of meat that has no resemblance to an animal right off the shelf, its as easy as lifting co-co pops.

In a sense you are right but.. In another you are not. Just because someone is not aware of what they are doing, does not mean that they are innocent. In legal terms we have less penalties for people who accidentally harm or kill or infringe on others rights, but.. They are still guilty of those crimes to an extent even if they didn't know what they were doing.

For example.. Empathy doesn't vanish from the equation just because someone doesn't realize they are paying for animals to be slaughter on their behalf.
That's like saying.. A human could order a hit on another human to be slaughtered and it'd be okay as long as the one ordering the hit didn't understand what was happening..
Once again, people who do this often get less harsh penalty like negligent homicide or "insanity".. But.. They are still guilty of the crime. (Assuming in this theoretical case they are really guilty and the evidence is overwhelming)

Okay moving on.. Your next point I wanted to address was this.

I would not say it is horrific (as it was done under kind circumstances

How can you kindly take another sentient beings life who does not want to die?

Suffice to say my meat intake has drastically declined, but not gone completely as a consequence. I am, however, moving more and more toward a plant based diet. Does that make me less a man? That really depends on your definition of a man.

That's awesome to hear you're working on more plant based. And I agree! It does depend on your definition of man, and we most people seem to have their own definitions and understandings of words.. So man to one person is not to another. I get that. Yet.. I think we generally are speaking of manly in a positive sense that men aspire towards. So in that context, I think it's much more manly as I said in my OP to care about others and not be a ruthless killer who doesn't care about anyone but himself.(Sociopath/pscyhopath) By the way we have too many of those types in the world, the ones who don't care about others. It's killing the planet. They aren't just defined as having a mental disease but they themselves are like a disease upon the planet.

I do know that killing after killing will dull you to a point where it would be normal. Do I choose to do that? No.

How would this sound in human context? That you basically only kill humans so much that you never get cold to it? Does that make it sound better when.. You want to still be able to feel the experience from the kill? I guess it is better.. But I mean.. Why not just.. Don't kill at all unless you absolutely need to for survival? That sounds more logical to me.

Let me be frank though, should it become a survival situation, I probably would kill an animal to eat.

I'm a little confused here because you already said you killed an animal or multiple when it wasn't a survival situation.. But.. To clarify.. I would probably kill an animal if I needed to survive as well.. Though fortunately there's tons of grocery stores with endless amounts plants. And other smaller local farmers, and plants I could harvest from the land. Would take one crazy zombie sort of apocalypse or some other crazy thing to make it necessary for me to kill an animal to eat.

Maybe we should be asking the question as to why foodstuff plants are not readily available everywhere. Would it not be better to plant apple trees to line a road? would it not be better to encourage vegetable planting in parks and gardens? why do we insist on trees in public being barren or chastising people for having food growing instead of useless lawns?

There's more than enough plants available despite governments highly subsidizing animal products to the virtual exclusion of them. Yet I would be all for people planting more food plants all over the place. I think that's awesome, that's kinda like how the natives lived before we came over here and took their land and slaughtered them in a similar way that we still treat the animals.

The natives according to my research were almost all vegan outside of a few tribes before we showed up, they lived in harmony with the land and thre was edible plants almost EVERYWHERE.. It's kinda what Thanksgiving was all about you know.. The settlers were starving cause they couldn't sustain themselves from just hunting and the natives showed them how to live off the land.. Then.. Well.. We know how it ended.

I'm sorry, I digress. To answer your question from my own point of view? No, It does not make one less manly or womanly to not eat meat in the same way it would not make someone less of a person because they love another person or animal.

I'm totally confused with this statement. But I guess it depends on how you look at the word manly as mentioned earlier.

We really have to get back to judging an individual by their actions. Not eating meat may just have those 8 things to their favor from the article, but I would ask 'does it make them a better person?'

I agree. Judge people by their actions. And if they don't need to kill animals to survive, we should judge them by their actions. To each according to their own, some people don't care about animals at all and are ruthless.. But for those of us who study philosophy and try to live in a moral and honorable way then I can only agree to disagree with you here. I do think that refraining from killing other beings for no reasons is a more moral and honorable thing to do.

You wouldn't want to be killed for no good reason like that, so why should you do it to another sentient being? It's the golden rule pretty much all the religions of the world talk about.. Don't do unto others that which you would not want done to you.

WOW, thanks for the post man, dont know where all that came from :-)

You're welcome! thanks for the thoughtful response. I find it to be an important subject so I'm definitely putting myself out there to talk about it more and help others abuse and exploit animals less. I'm not going to shy away from this subject any time soon. It's an important one that could threaten our very species survival.

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Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful reply. I like to think I keep my mind open to new ideas, and there is a spectrum where some are on one end, and others on the other. I see this is one of your passions, so let me try and clarify some points I made. Please understand you may not agree with them, but sometimes we have to agree to disagree and the fact we can have a reasonable discussion is something I hold dear to me.
I'm not sure humane and empathy have a common root so I'm a little confused with your first part If you have a question about 'humane slaughter' though, Im sure the difference between electrocuting for a week, or a bolt to the head might suffice(I know you know this, but yes, you die either way)... but moving along, I was kind of trying to highlight the pathological lack of empathy created in society as a cause for how there is as a dichotomy created between us where meat eating is concerned.

        "Just because someone is not aware of what they are doing, does not mean that they are innocent. In legal terms we have less penalties for people who accidentally harm or kill or infringe on others rights, but.. They are still guilty of those crimes to an extent even if they didn't know what they were doing."

I'm not sure that is a valid argument as it seems to presuppose a third party watching is judging by their own morals scale, and those that are living with no knowledge of man-made laws of a particular country, should be found guilty anyway. For instance, is one innocent for stepping on an ant or using an aerosol to kill a fly, perhaps Buddhists would not think so, or is someone in the arctic guilty because they have to kill a seal to live as there are no vegetables? perhaps to some, some might point to life being life , but if we deem the lion sentient, should it be allowed to kill deer for food?
further, I do not think an order of a 'hit' would be accidental as in your example, would you?

To say one is not innocent for the taking of another life when one does not know is a little confusing to me, where does it end?. If you are a Vegan and accidentally get fed a meat based soup are they guilty? if you sit to eat a table of rain forest dwellers and partake of their offering and find later it was monkey is one guilty? I do not believe so. But that is me making judgement on my own scale, you may feel different.

Yes, I killed an animal who was to be slaughtered anyway (that does not necessarily make it right). I in effect offered to take the place of the butcher, as I said I felt if I was to continue down the path of meat-eating I should bear the full repercussions of doing so and not just pull a packet from the shelf. Al the meat was consumed, it was not done for 'fun'. I took on the experience as I would know what I am vicariously doing and would judge myself, with the knowledge of experiencing. By all means have a lesser regard for me for doing so. But know you are judging another by your own preconceptions.

I will not comment on the human killing sentence you placed where I state multiple killing will dull a person, I think you were emotional, but if you wish to take that further I can.

My point in "would not eating meat make you less manly" and comparing the question to "would you be less manly for loving a person" is that the question is ridiculous in both instances. How can you be less than what you are for doing or not doing something? you are who you are. Others might like to judge though, hence the question I suppose, but from my own subjectively I say no.

I understand we live this life from our own perspective. I understand we judge others by our standards. Lets not judge too harshly those that steer a different course though, as there but for the grace of God go I. We can try to gently steer a hunter away from killing, but should a group rise up expounding that plants have feelings and are sentient, those that expound the virtues of veganism will be persecuted and where does that leave us?

I hope this makes sense and additionally hope this difference of ideology does not make us so different we cannot still appreciate our diversity. If not, I understand. :-)
If there are points I missed you wish to cover, I'll be happy to respond.

all animals help us. we are a comunity in this world.
thanks for your valuable post @apolymask:-)

Looks bad :(

I like meat eating men because they are not grossed out by my meat diet.

I mean no offense. I am fine with you not eating meat. I am also fine with eating meat. :)

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To each their own. And..No offense taken, I'm open minded to meeting women who aren't vegan and giving them a chance, though I'm MUCH MUCH MUCH more attracted to vegan women. I think women are the ones who are generally biologically speaking, suppose to care more and be more empathetic by their nature.. There's a good amount of science to show this, so I definitely am more attracted to women who care about others, including the animals. Makes it kinda difficult for me as a man, when I care more than the woman. It's bad enough already that almost all men are zombies these days, it's extra sad to see what seems like a majority of women even become insensitive and uncaring. The world truly is a ruthless monsterous beast at times. Though hopefully some of us can show that some people do still care, even about the animals. :) <3

agree with you... on this

Shit, I hate non veg .

Who Drink water with his tongue they are non vegan and who Drink water with mouth they are vegan . Humans are vegan by nature but eat non veg. I love veg food

Hi apolymask

The article you've sourced is full of misleading info based on very dodgy science or literally pulled out of thin air. I don't think you're trying to mislead anyone but I do think it's right to put the counter-argument out there.

I started to write a response here but it got too wordy so I posted a full one here:

Response to misleading vegan information

Best wishes
Anjx
Ex-vegan

crypto throne banner.png

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You're welcome to your opinion but you posted so many false things so fast I couldn't even finish reading your article. And I'm just too busy right now to argue with someone who is clearly extremely biased.
I've seen your posts before and choose not to engage you because you appear to be extremely set in your ways. I've discovered it's not worth my time trying to reach the more extreme carnists because they don't care much about trying to find the truth, they mostly just want to justify their habits.

To me what it sounds like is that you didn't do veganism right and now you think it's somehow unhealthy because you messed up and didn't eat enough or whatever.
The scientific and historical evidence is just so overwhelming that I find it almost comical whenever someone tries to debunk veganism at this point.

I am willing to go into a serious debate with you on this subject if you want to, I'm willing to get into the gnitty gritty, the deep details of each relevant scientific study, though I have my doubts it's going to work out based on your attitude and what I've seen from you.

PS there's no proof eating meat did anything for us evolutionarily speaking and the more common theory is that it was the discovery of FIRE and COOKING to cook PLANTS, which lead to the evolutionary adaptions which makes a LOT more logical sense if you really think about it. However, I can see already based off your first few arguments and the previous things you've said that trying to engage with you will probably be unreasonable seeing as you're ignoring massive amounts of empirical data while resorting to fringe weird pro animal agriculture industry information.

You can believe vegans are all the awful stuff you believe as much as you want, but the truth is.. According to the biggest group of health professionals in the world, veganism is healthful for every stage of life including babies, old age, and highly demanding athletics, which makes sense cause we have vegan athletes dominating in virtually every sport in the world and who hold world records for strength and other athletics, yet somehow I'm suppose to believe plants are bad for us? It's absolutely ludicrous. Enjoy your beliefs.

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you posted so many false things so fast I couldn't even finish reading your article

This could be part of the problem. I think it's important to read conflicting information, no matter how sharp it grates against us. You say you'd be willing to get into a debate with me, but if you can't even bring yourself to read and comment on my side of the argument, we wouldn't get very far, would we.

You accuse me of being extreme and biased. I don't think so – I read actual scientific studies and draw reasonable conclusions. It looks to me like you get all your 'facts' from vegan/vegetarian propaganda sources.

Unlike you, I don't find it comical. It worries me. I've got kids and grandkids that are exposed to this dangerous and persuasive propaganda. I feel it's my duty of care to let others know that the vegan diet causes harm in the majority of people who maintain it long term. BTW, most abandon the vegan diet before they reach the year mark.

Set in ways: not really. I constantly upgrade and adjust my position when I come across new and convincing information. I learn. I grow. I improve (hopefully). Sometimes I get it wrong. We all do. But if I learned anything, it's that any type of belief is a dangerous thing. It causes you to close your mind to other possibilities. Here's an earlier blog of mine to illustrate how I'm not the believing type: The Cult of Belief.

there's no proof eating meat did anything for us evolutionarily speaking

Just plain wrong. This shows me you are getting all your 'scientific facts' from vegan sources.

According to the biggest group of health professionals in the world

Yes, believe everything your government tells you. That's never gone badly for anyone, right. Hmmm.

Feel free to come over and show me where my facts are wrong. I'm always open to learning and adjusting my position in the face of solid evidence.

Best wishes
Anj

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This could be part of the problem. I think it's important to read conflicting information, no matter how sharp it grates against us. You say you'd be willing to get into a debate with me, but if you can't even bring yourself to read and comment on my side of the argument, we wouldn't get very far, would we.

Yes it is, which is why I study both sides of every debate intensely and I did read and respond, I mentioned the evolution thing you were wrong about. No need to go further until you either prove that claim or admit you were wrong.

Look. Two important things, not to be mean. But.. Ever since you chimed in on my thread about Jesus possibly being a vegan you showed me what kind of level of researcher you are, you tried to cite Jesus eating animals and didn't even know which book you were talking about.. And.. You appear to have made yourself so ill from your vegan diet that you harmed yourself to the point where you have this ax to grind and you have some extremely irrational in my opinion treatment towards a lot of good people.

You claim to know all this stuff, but.. Based on first impressions of you not even knowing which biblical book you were referring to, pointing to absolutely debatable evolutionary things as fact and you made yourself ill on a diet that heals probably the majority of people who try it. Why would anyone take the advice of someone who harmed themselves on a simple diet that probably heals most people who try it? And the others who have problems probably just didn't eat enough or had some other weird medical issues.

I mean I always find it interesting when people who fail at a diet go around trying to act like they are some expert.. No thanks. I'll listen to the world class athletes who whold world records in the most physically demanding sports in the world.

It looks to me like you get all your 'facts' from vegan/vegetarian propaganda sources.

That's funny.. And one of the most common things I hear from people who rely solely on fringe animal agriculture research. But I get most of my studies from peer reviewed sources who don't have any obvious ties to either side of the argument. And a lot of meta analysis too. The science is just so incredibly overwhelming... And I don't even need science. I can just point to all the world class athletes who are whooping the ass of meat eaters in physical competition and people who hav e been vegan their entire lives since birth and who are in better health than most people I see.

Seriously.. Sorry you either did it wrong or you are one of those rare people with a medical disease that requires either dead flesh or products from animals. I've never once in my life found a compelling study that says we NEED animal products, but I've found tons of neutral peer reviewed ones that show vegans have less risk of virtually all disease and all cause mortality and we live longer by almost 10 years and more.

I am willing to go into a deep debate with you, but based on what I've seen from you so far.. I don't think you are really in a good position to debate someone as you don't really know how to determine what is good information and what is bad and you seem to just pick studies that support your confirmation bias.

It worries me. I've got kids and grandkids that are exposed to this dangerous and persuasive propaganda.

That's a whole new level of reefer madness, it's not just marijuana we have to fear anymore.. It's broccoli and beans! Wow. Sorry. I just can't relate very well. Humans have lived off of mostly plants for recorded history and only recently has exploiting animals become so disgusting and massive to the point it threatens our entire species.

The whole world can't afford to live like you. There's not enough water or land on the planet. Things are changing whether you like it or not. Good luck to you. I hope you find a way to continue to be healthy even if you need animal sacrifice to survive.

But if I learned anything, it's that any type of belief is a dangerous thing. It causes you to close your mind to other possibilities.

I wish you could listen to yourself through my eyes and see how much so much of what you say can be totally turned back upon yourself and it makes even more sense when done that way.

You have closed your mind with your beliefs. I question everything, even my own deeply held beliefs. My language reflects it for the most part, I'm not perfect.. But I'm a lot cleaner than you claiming absolutes you'll never be able to prove.
I can prove almost everything I've said, you've claimed things that are just impossible to prove.. Your credibility is the one that is lacking here, not mine.

Just plain wrong. This shows me you are getting all your 'scientific facts' from vegan sources.

Omgoodness. There's no proof we even evolved. There's evidence. You do know the difference between proof and evidence right? And please don't tell me we're going to have to get into a whole side issue about evolution now as well since I said it's not proven and perhaps you think it is? I mean once again.. You and so many other people claim to think you know so much you don't.. I'm sure you were alive millions of years ago to watch the human race evolve?? And then.. You know somehow that them eating meat made their brains evolve? I mean.. Wow.. You are like psychic or something.

There are theories, no proof. The more popular theories are that it was to cook hard plants like tubers.

You make me wonder if you've seen the NWO diet and you're one of sv3riges followers.
I wonder if you think eating rotting and raw meat is good too? And that the government is trying to take over the world by making people eat plants! I apologize.. But it's hard to take seriously sometimes the levels that people go to to justify their beliefs.

Yes, believe everything your government tells you.

It's not a government group. But I guess you just somehow know it is even though it's not sorta like you know Jesus ate meat and that we evolved from eating meat. Right. Gotcha. This is what I mean.. I don't think you're really prepared to debate someone like me when you are so sloppy with your language.
I can literally pick apart your words for hours and I don't have that kind of time.
This debate will most likely not be fruitful, but I am willing to do it because I do believe in communication even with the most stubborn of minds, though there gets to be a point where I think we both just gotta admit that we're never going to agree and we can agree to disagree.

Which is one reason why I don't think we should debate, I don't think you are open mind to having your mind changed. I've debated numerous people like you who are just hardcore and set in their ways and at some point it just becomes a huge expense of time and very little is gained.

So it's up to you! I'd rather skip it though, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. That's not my job. I'm just sharing my opinions on things and talking about stuff I find interesting or important. Not into beating my head against a wall for hours and hours and hours with someone who will probably never budge an inch.

Feel free to come over and show me where my facts are wrong. I'm always open to learning and adjusting my position in the face of solid evidence.

No. Start by proving without a doubt 100% that eating meat had some kind of effect on us. Over here. It's your job to prove the claims you've made, not my job to disprove them. It's called the burden of proof. Maybe you've heard of it?

Burden of proof goes something like this. The one making the claim has to prove their claim. I look forward to seeing how you can prove your claims without a time machine.

Best wishes. Sorry if I came off like an asshole but you did first, and I've seen your other posts on the subject where you talk horribly about people who are trying to help the animals and the planet, and.. I'm not a fan of that.

If we did evolve from apes, they eat like 99% plants with a bug or small animal every once and a while probably because they are starving or something and can't find enough plants or are ill or sick in some way. If we evolved from them, why would we all of a sudden drastically go from 99% plants to what many people are doing almost entirely animal products? Some people are 100% animal products.. I mean.. To me it's just overwhelmingly obvious based on what I'm aware of.

And regardless of if we even did evolve or if meat played a part in that, doesn't matter now. Just because people warred and raped in the past doesn't mean we should keep doing it. The past is no indication of what we should do in the future.

I will be surprised if you can come up with an argument I haven't heard like a million times, I debate this subject a lot. Good luck. And.. Sorry if I can't respond quick enough.. I'm insanely busy. But.. I will try if you want to. If you genuinely want to and if you give me your word that you will be honest and truly listen to me. I will do the same and I will truly listen to you.
But really I feel like I should have already said enough, the evidence is overwhelming in my opinion. People who think veganism is bad to me are kind of like flat earthers. No offense if you believe in it or not or what the truth of reality is, it's just one of the most fringe ideas that almost all the evidence in the world goes against.

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Woooaaah! How rude! There's no need for that really. If you can't enter a rational debate without insulting people... well, I don't want to insult you.

I'm here to read, discuss interesting ideas too. You demand 100% proof yet believe in Jesus? Hmmm. BTW, I'm not a flat-earther, but I hear the bible says it's flat.

Anyway, I think you're wrong. You think I'm wrong. It'd be nice to have a catch-up conversation in, say, 5-10 years. See how things are ;). I like to debate, but I'm not into being insulted.

All cause mortality study. Spoiler alert: vegans don't live longer than anyone else.

Enjoy your journey. Say hello to Ken Ham, Jesus and Vegan Gains for me.

Cheers
Anj x

delicious, nutritious food👍👍👍

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What... Plants? Yeah I know. Plants are super delicious and nutritious. :)